Digest urth.v030.n185 The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 20 Sep 2001 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2826 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Alice Turner — 20 Sep 2001, 21:04 ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:53 AM > Subject: Digest urth.v030.n185 > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v030.n185 -------------- > > 001 - "Matthew Davis" Crowley's AEgypt > 002 - James Jordan Star (SPOILERS) F&SF Mag story > > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v030.n185.1 --------------- > > From: "Matthew Davis" > Subject: "Love's Labour's Lost" in John Crowley's AEgypt > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:42:35 +0100 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C13F97.C133E5E0" > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C13F97.C133E5E0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I know this is primarily a space for discussion of Gene Wolfe, but > since > John Crowley does seem to pop up quite regularly I though it might be > a > worthwhile space to test out the observations below. I don't know if > anyone else has discussed the relationship of "Love's Labour's Lost" to > John Crowley's "Aegypt" - it seems obvious to me but I haven't seen it > mentioned in any of the reviews or essays - so if all of the below is > well known then I apologise for wasting your time. > > On the surface, Crowley's only use of LLL is for the title of Kraft's > autobiography and to acknowledge the origins of that title. This all > occurs within the consciousness of Rosie, and the only things they > evoke > for her are own depression, forlornness and sense of solitude. If you > didn't otherwise know you might think LLL is a tragedy, from such a > deliberate misreading of what is actually a comedy. Although a comedy > that is almost very nearly a problem play. > > I > > If we look at the plot, we can see a use similar to that Crowley makes > of "the Solitudes" as an organising principle: a group of > scholars/knights retreat from the world, makes vows of celibacy and > forswear love so that they may concentrate on their studies that will > bring them fame and triumph over death and time. Of course the real > world breaks in upon when they fall in love, and their experience at > the > hands of the objects of their desire leaves them compromised and their > vaunted intellectualism humiliated. Sounds a little like Pierce, yes? > Most commentators point out that that the movement of the play is > about > leaving off self-deceptions in a world of enclosed artificiality to > enter into wider perspective of reality. Of course, this is a > fundamental narrative pattern, and since in its philosophical form as > "gnosis" this is what "Aegypt" is all about I can't really argue that > Crowley is drawing particularly upon this. But it's certainly more > advanced than what one would expect to find in a comedy. And that it > is > a comedy is important, with its connotations of spring time and the > pastoral. In his treatment of Blackbury Jambs and the Faraway Hills it > is evident that Crowley is imbuing these locations with the qualities > of > Elizabethan pastoral. LLL for a pastoral comedy has an advanced > quality > of knowingness, where the obvious literary artificiality of its plot > and > the characters conceptions of themselves is transcended by > acknowledging > genuine mortification and introducing a cyclicality into the lives of > its protagonists - the vows that lead to farce repeat themself as, if > not tragedy, then as an experience of some pain - tying its > protagonists' development into the forthcoming year with a more > complicated and emotionally resonant reality. In his final lecture, > Crowley uses Barr to make it quite explicit that he is drawing upon > Elizabethan storytelling techniques of repetition to induce meaning. Of > all Shakespeare's plays, LLL has probably the least action - it is a > comedy of contemplation in set pieces progressing by its protagonists > appearances and reappearances in different but very formal > combinations. > We know from "Novelty" Crowley conceives of "Aegypt" in terms > influenced > by "Euphes" (LLL is certainly a satire on Euphuism), and indeed > without > its very formal elements of themes, scenes, characters and their > thoughts repeating the whole novel would be impenetrable. > > Finally, the last third of the play revolves around how each of the > suitors is fooled into wooing the wrong woman. The breaking of their > vows and quibbling over their consciences is made rather ridiculous when > they are fooled into making suits to the wrong women, although there is > still pathos in their predicament. Just as Pierce's debates of > conscience are still valid even though he has confused the two Roses. > And the play ends uncertain as to whether the suitors will win their > women. > > II > > Let's look at the only obvious Crowley makes of LLL. Kraft's > autobiography is titled "Sit Down, Sorrow" later in the book we are > given the actual passage in LLL from which it originates: > > "Welcome the sour cup of prosperity! > Affliction may one day smile again: and until then, > Sit down, sorrow." > > However, this is wrong. The proper quote , in its fullness, should be: > > "I suffer for the truth, sir: for true it is I was taken with > Jaquenetta, and Jaquenetta is a true girl; and therefore welcome the > sour cup of prosperity! Affliction may one day smile again; and till > then, sit THEE down, sorrow." - act I, sc.1, the final speech, since > line numbering varies for prose. (CAPS - my own) > > So: the original passage is prose and the quotation is wrong. The only > instance I can find of "Sit down, sorrow" is accompanied by the same > cod-versification, and it is here: > http://www.johndee.org/charlotte/Chapter14/14p1.html as an epigraph > used > in Charlotte Fell Smith's "John Dee" (1909). The assumption we may > make > is that in his researches Kraft/Crowley has taken this particular > quote > from this particular biography of Dee, where this particular chapter > relates Dee's and Talbot's time in Bohemia. Of course it may be > Crowley > and Smith are using the same edition of LLL, but a quick browse > through > various editions and their editorial commentary in my local library > (which holds a lot of reserve stock for the RSC) didn't turn up a > single > instance of this particular version. > > III > > One of the foundations of LLL criticism is that the character of > "Holofernes" represents John Florio, and since then other characters > and > dialogue have been identified as various Elizabethan notables and > touching upon current events with the entire play as a satire on the > school of Walter Raleigh. In particular, the play is a locus for people > trying to connect Shakespeare to Giordano Bruno. Florio was an associate > of Bruno's when he was in England and the character of "Berowne" has > often been identified as being in some degree based upon Bruno - the > extensive use of celestial imagery, the celebration of a vivifying > divine love, the extensive use of eye and visualisation imagery that may > be derived from Bruno's art of Memory. Personally, I think this is all > extremely tenuous at best - given that Francis A. Yates wrote a study > of > LLL I'm sure that she has at some point examined these connections and > come to a more definitive conclusion - but the point is not whether it > is true, accurate, or even faintly provable but that this series of > Bruno-LLL associations is sufficiently long-standing to merit > consideration and therefore have influence. > > How convincing any of the above is is debatable, but I thought it was > interesting how on even brief examination LLL kept touching upon > important scenes, themes and characters in "Aegypt" and vice versa. > > Matthew Davis > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C13F97.C133E5E0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > >
>

I know this is primarily a space for discussion of Gene Wolfe, but > since John > Crowley does seem to pop up quite regularly I though it might be a > worthwhile > space to test out the observations below. I don’t know if anyone > else has > discussed the relationship of "Love’s Labour’s Lost" to John > Crowley’s "Aegypt" > – it seems obvious to me but I haven’t seen it mentioned > in > any of the reviews > or essays - so if all of the below is well known then I apologise for > wasting > your time.

>

On the surface, Crowley’s only use of LLL is for the title of > Kraft’s > autobiography and to acknowledge the origins of that title. This all > occurs > within the consciousness of Rosie, and the only things they evoke for > her are > own depression, forlornness and sense of solitude. If you didn’t > otherwise know > you might think LLL is a tragedy, from such a deliberate misreading of > what is > actually a comedy. Although a comedy that is almost very nearly a > problem > play.

>

I

>

If we look at the plot, we can see a use similar to that Crowley > makes of > "the Solitudes" as an organising principle: a group of > scholars/knights > retreat > from the world, makes vows of celibacy and forswear love so that they > may > concentrate on their studies that will bring them fame and triumph > over > death > and time. Of course the real world breaks in upon when they fall in > love, and > their experience at the hands of the objects of their desire leaves > them > > compromised and their vaunted intellectualism humiliated. Sounds a > little like > Pierce, yes? Most commentators point out that that the movement of the > play is > about leaving off self-deceptions in a world of enclosed artificiality > to enter > into wider perspective of reality. Of course, this is a fundamental > narrative > pattern, and since in its philosophical form as "gnosis" this is what > "Aegypt" > is all about I can’t really argue that Crowley is drawing > particularly upon > this. But it’s certainly more advanced than what one would > expect > to find in a > comedy. And that it is a comedy is important, with its connotations of > spring > time and the pastoral. In his treatment of Blackbury Jambs and the > Faraway Hills > it is evident that Crowley is imbuing these locations with the > qualities > of > Elizabethan pastoral. LLL for a pastoral comedy has an advanced > quality > of > knowingness, where the obvious literary artificiality of its plot and > the > characters conceptions of themselves is transcended by acknowledging > genuine > mortification and introducing a cyclicality into the lives of its > protagonists – > the vows that lead to farce repeat themself as, if not tragedy, then > as > an > experience of some pain – tying its protagonists’ > development into the > forthcoming year with a more complicated and emotionally resonant > reality. In > his final lecture, Crowley uses Barr to make it quite explicit that he > is > drawing upon Elizabethan storytelling techniques of repetition to > induce > > meaning. Of all Shakespeare’s plays, LLL has probably the least > action – it is a > comedy of contemplation in set pieces progressing by its > protagonists > appearances and reappearances in different but very formal > combinations. > We know > from "Novelty" Crowley conceives of "Aegypt" in terms influenced by > "Euphes" > (LLL is certainly a satire on Euphuism), and indeed without its very > formal > elements of themes, scenes, characters and their thoughts repeating > the > whole > novel would be impenetrable.

>

Finally, the last third of the play revolves around how each of the > suitors > is fooled into wooing the wrong woman. The breaking of their vows and > quibbling > over their consciences is made rather ridiculous when they are fooled > into > making suits to the wrong women, although there is still pathos in > their > > predicament. Just as Pierce’s debates of conscience are still > valid even though > he has confused the two Roses. And the play ends uncertain as to > whether > the > suitors will win their women.

>

II

>

Let’s look at the only obvious Crowley makes of LLL. > Kraft’s autobiography is > titled "Sit Down, Sorrow" later in the book we are given the actual > passage in > LLL from which it originates:

>

"Welcome the sour cup of prosperity!
Affliction may one day > smile > again: > and until then,
Sit down, sorrow."

>

However, this is wrong. The proper quote , in its fullness, should > be:

>

"I suffer for the truth, sir: for true it is I was taken with > Jaquenetta, and > Jaquenetta is a true girl; and therefore welcome the sour cup of > prosperity! > Affliction may one day smile again; and till then, sit THEE down, > sorrow." – act > I, sc.1, the final speech, since line numbering varies for prose. (CAPS > – my > own)

>

So: the original passage is prose and the quotation is wrong. The > only > instance I can find of "Sit down, sorrow" is accompanied by the > same > cod-versification, and it is here: href="http://www.johndee.org/charlotte/Chapter14/14p1.html">http://www.johndee.org/charlotte/Chapter14/14p1.html <> FONT > size=2> as an epigraph used in Charlotte Fell Smith’s "John > Dee" > (1909). The > assumption we may make is that in his researches Kraft/Crowley has > taken > this > particular quote from this particular biography of Dee, where this > particular > chapter relates Dee’s and Talbot’s time in Bohemia. Of > course it may be Crowley > and Smith are using the same edition of LLL, but a quick browse > through > various > editions and their editorial commentary in my local library (which > holds > a lot > of reserve stock for the RSC) didn’t turn up a single instance > of > this > particular version.

>

III

>

One of the foundations of LLL criticism is that the character of > "Holofernes" > represents John Florio, and since then other characters and dialogue > have been > identified as various Elizabethan notables and touching upon current > events with > the entire play as a satire on the school of Walter Raleigh. In > particular, the > play is a locus for people trying to connect Shakespeare to Giordano > Bruno. > Florio was an associate of Bruno’s when he was in England and > the > character of > "Berowne" has often been identified as being in some degree based upon > Bruno – > the extensive use of celestial imagery, the celebration of a vivifying > divine > love, the extensive use of eye and visualisation imagery that may be > derived > from Bruno’s art of Memory. Personally, I think this is all > extremely tenuous at > best - given that Francis A. Yates wrote a study of LLL I’m sure > that she has at > some point examined these connections and come to a more definitive > conclusion – > but the point is not whether it is true, accurate, or even faintly > provable but > that this series of Bruno-LLL associations is sufficiently > long-standing > to > merit consideration and therefore have influence.

>

How convincing any of the above is is debatable, but I thought it > was > > interesting how on even brief examination LLL kept touching upon > important > scenes, themes and characters in "Aegypt" and vice versa.

>

Matthew Davis

> > ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C13F97.C133E5E0-- > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v030.n185.2 --------------- > > From: James Jordan > Subject: Re: (urth) In Glory Like Their Star (SPOILERS) F&SF Mag story > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:24:17 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > In-Reply-To: <200109010031.f810VRc48532 at lists1.ba.best.com> > > Only one thought, and it's probably wrong: > > At 07:28 PM 8/31/2001 -0500, you wrote: > > Just read this in the Oct/Nov issue of Fantasy & Science Fiction > > magazine I > > got in the mail yesterday. Always excited to see a new Wolfe story > > anywhere. > > > > Once again the more Wolfe stories that come out the less chance there > > is of > > me *thinking* I fully understand them. I doubt I've had that feeling > > since > > the early 80s. > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > > I felt shock when within the first page I had figured out that this > > was a > > story of aliens (misinterpreted as gods) visiting earth, so I knew > > Gene was > > giving that away and the real mysteries were to come. > > > > And once again I have mostly questions that I hope others here can > > shed > > light on for me (smile). > > > > 1. Any idea what the passage on p.110 means? "Our long voyage > > through > > space impressed them. I doubt they grasped its length, for their > > concepts > > of the five they call "time" are muddled, and so eroneous that they > > cannot > > be termed primitive with any precision. They will be primitive, > > perhaps, > > when the sunlight reaches them on this place." > > > > I don't understand the word "five" compared to time. > > > > I don't understand where this place that sunlight will reach is to > > try to > > determine when he things earthlings will reach primitive status. > The light from his own home sun, which he has outrun? Or are > we in > a nuclear winter? > > 2. What is the deal about the earth not being a sphere because the > > desert > > is a flat spot where gravity works differently? Is the desert the > > mysterious hidden "Eden" man is still searching for? Something on a > > different plane where gravity, time, etc. work differently that the > > alien > > could see but man can't? > Is the "flat" area the site of a nuclear detonation? > > Nutria > > > > --------------- END urth.v030.n185 --------------- other works ------------------------------------------------------------------------------