{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2851", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2851, "subject": "take 'em, tiger", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-12-01T11:37:38+00:00", "last": "2001-12-03T13:35:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aturner3", "address": "aturner3 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2001-12-01T11:37:38+00:00", "subject": "take 'em, tiger", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A message from Wolfe:\n\n? Pioneer Press September 27, 2001\nA guest essay by Gene Wolfe, published in a Chicago-area local newspaper, is\nunfortunately not online. Wolfe urges citizens to act quickly, and pressure\nthe politicians to take action... \n\nWe will be told that the perpetrators (and only the perpetrators) must be\npunished, and that the greatest pains must be taken to make certain no\ninnocent person suffers. That sounds much better than saying no action\nshould be taken, but it comes to the same thing. The perpetrators cannot be\npunished. They died in the planes they hijacked and are beyond our reach. It\nis not possible to fight a war (not even a losing war) without causing\ninnocent people to suffer. \n\nWolfe's recommendations for immediate action: 1) declare war on nations that\nharbor terrorists; 2) arm the plane crews; 3) seal the borders; 4) return\nnon-citizens to their homelands; 5) root out terrorist organizations\neverywhere; and 6) stop pressuring Israel to go soft on terrorists. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-12-01T18:37:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) take 'em, tiger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:37 AM 12/1/2001 -0800, Alice wrote:\nWolfe's recommendations for immediate action: 1) declare war on nations that\nharbor terrorists; 2) arm the plane crews; 3) seal the borders; 4) return\nnon-citizens to their homelands; 5) root out terrorist organizations\neverywhere; and 6) stop pressuring Israel to go soft on terrorists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "#s3. & 4. seem extreme. As for #1., I prefer the analogy of declaring war \non the Barbary Pirates. Declare war on Al Qaeda and anyone similar, not on \nnations qua nations, unless things change. That would cover #5. Iraq is a \nspecial case; I think Bush has done correctly to say let the UN inspectors \nback in now, or else.... I agree with #6, though I think Israel needs to \ncorrect some things in her behavior also.\n\nThe main thing, I think, is not to be naive about Islam in general and \nradical Islamism in particular. The American understanding of society is \nrooted in Christian notions, that God is One but also a Community, so tht \nthere are multiple \"heirarchies\" and \"spheres\" in life (church, state, \nfamily, media, business, etc.), and that love & reasonable persuasion is \nthe best way to function in community. Islam is purely monotheistic, with \none hierarchy from Allah to men to women & children & slaves, a hierarchy \nbased solely on power and not moderated by love and persuasion. Though many \nWesterners are not Christian by personal committment, they have been \ninfluenced by these Christian (and partly Athenian) ideas; and of course \nmany people in Islam have been influenced by Western ideas. But pure Islam, \nand thus the Islamic militant revival, rejects those moderating ideas. What \nthey understand is power, and it is important for the West (America in this \ncase) to show Great Power, the \"big footprint,\" in suppressing radical \nIslamism. Neither kindness nor reasonable persuasion are going to work on \npeople who want to keep their women in total subjection -- and I think the \n\"liberation\" of women is one of the main, if not THE main, threat/s these \nparticular people fear and loathe. (Consider the Taliban.)\n\nFWIW\n\nJim Jordan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-12-02T14:31:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) take 'em, tiger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the sake of civility, I suggest that people refrain from making claims\nfor the superiority of one religion over another on this list.\n\nI would dispute Jim Jordan's comments, but I would prefer to just drop the\ntopic.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-12-03T13:35:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) take 'em, tiger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not too surprising Wolfe would have strong opinions on this subject. \nJust about every book he writes has a war in it. The only exceptions I\ncan think of are Peace (heh.), Free Live Free, There Are Doors, and\nPandora.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }