{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2876", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2876, "subject": "The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2001-12-31T18:38:02+00:00", "last": "2002-01-02T21:51:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2001-12-31T18:38:02+00:00", "subject": "The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello, and are Urth and The Whorl still turning?\n\n\n\n\n\nRecently INERZONE published an essay by Gene Wolfe, explaining what The Lord\nOf The Rings meant to him.\n\nI was very impressed by Wolfe's words, and I purchased from him the right to\ndisplay the essay on my own website.\n\nI am foolish enough to believe that the essay says some important things\nabout Tolkien's work. At any rate it moved me deeply.\n\nIf you should be interested, it is at:\n\n\nhttp://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/docindex.html\n\n\n\n\n\n Andy Robertson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Strickland", "address": "sstrickland at satx.rr.com" }, "date": "2001-12-31T23:44:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Robertson,\n\nMany thanks! Tolkien and Wolfe are without a doubt the two authors who've\nresonated most strongly with me over the last 25 years or so, so an essay by\none about the other is a dream come true. Naturally, when I heard about the\nWolfe article, I looked long and hard for the INTERZONE issue, but was too\nlate.\n\nWow! A very nice article.\n\nThanks again.\n\n\nSteve Strickland\n\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" \nTo: \nSent: Monday, December 31, 2001 12:38 PM\nSubject: (urth) The Best Introduction To The Mountains\nHello, and are Urth and The Whorl still turning?\n\n\n\n\n\nRecently INERZONE published an essay by Gene Wolfe, explaining what The\nLord\nOf The Rings meant to him.\n\nI was very impressed by Wolfe's words, and I purchased from him the right\nto\ndisplay the essay on my own website.\n\nI am foolish enough to believe that the essay says some important things\nabout Tolkien's work. At any rate it moved me deeply.\n\nIf you should be interested, it is at:\n\n\nhttp://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/docindex.html\n\n\n\n\n\n Andy Robertson" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Hubert Rogers", "address": "hubert at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2002-01-01T13:23:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is truely a masterpiece of an essay, very interesting ideas about\nsociety. If only Tolkien lived to read Gene Wolfe's books...\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" \nTo: \nSent: Monday, December 31, 2001 6:38 PM\nSubject: (urth) The Best Introduction To The Mountains\nHello, and are Urth and The Whorl still turning?\n\n\n\n\n\nRecently INERZONE published an essay by Gene Wolfe, explaining what The\nLord\nOf The Rings meant to him.\n\nI was very impressed by Wolfe's words, and I purchased from him the right\nto\ndisplay the essay on my own website.\n\nI am foolish enough to believe that the essay says some important things\nabout Tolkien's work. At any rate it moved me deeply.\n\nIf you should be interested, it is at:\n\n\nhttp://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/docindex.html\n\n\n\n\n\n Andy Robertson" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-01T19:59:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh. Sorry, guys. I thought the list was down and have now spammed a load\nof you , , ,\nIs the Whorl list still up?\nWhere are the archives for it and Urth?\n\n:-\\\n\n --- *** ---\n\n\nYes, it's a fantastic essay. I believe it positions Wolfe as a conscious\ninheritor of Lewis and Tolkien - far more *deliberately* using his art in\nthe service of his political and social ideals than he has ever acknowledged\nup till now.\n\nIt is a great pity (and an utterly not-understandable thing) that it was\nrefused for MEDITATIONS ON MIDDLE-EARTH.\n\nMight I politely ask you all to pass on information about it to anyone who\nmight be interested? I really think it should see book publication, and\nin fact I have posted it on my web site with the end in mind.\n\n Andy Robertson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-01-02T15:13:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for putting this essay on your website, Andy; it's a great service.\nI agree that it's an important essay for Wolfe scholars, even if you don't\ncare about Tolkien, as I don't. (Has Wolfe ever mentioned Tolkien in print\nbefore?) Some aspects of his work definitely need to be reconsidered in\nlight of it, such as the presentation of the Autarch's rule in BOTNS as the\nbest possible under the circumstances, and of rebellion against it as\n\"Satanic\"; and the portrayal of Silk and Silkhorn as \"natural leaders.\" And\nI may have been too quick, earlier, to dismiss the poster who argued that\nBOTSS presented examples of \"good rule.\" But then, those elements of the\nbooks never appealed to me.\n\nI haven't looked at MEDITATIONS ON MIDDLE-EARTH, but possibly Wolfe's essay\nwas rejected because the image of Tolkien as propagandist for a society in\nwhich the lower orders cheerfully obey and serve their betters was not one\nthe editor wanted to project.\n\nBetween this and Wolfe's comments on 9-11 I'm learning more about Wolfe's\npolitics than I think I want to know, and I fear for THE WIZARD KNIGHT.\n\nAnd Terry Brooks again! First Pullman praises him, then Wolfe criticizes\nhis detractors. I've never read him, but can it be that his bad reputation\nis not entirely deserved?\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-02T14:53:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Stephanides\" \nThanks for putting this essay on your website, Andy; it's a great service.\nI agree that it's an important essay for Wolfe scholars, even if you don't\ncare about Tolkien, as I don't. (Has Wolfe ever mentioned Tolkien in\nprint\nbefore?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not as far as I know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some aspects of his work definitely need to be reconsidered in\nlight of it, such as the presentation of the Autarch's rule in BOTNS as\nthe\nbest possible under the circumstances, and of rebellion against it as\n\"Satanic\"; and the portrayal of Silk and Silkhorn as \"natural leaders.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I may have been too quick, earlier, to dismiss the poster who argued that\nBOTSS presented examples of \"good rule.\" But then, those elements of the\nbooks never appealed to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me neither, frankly. I always thought Wolfe undermined Severian's moral\nauthority at every turn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't looked at MEDITATIONS ON MIDDLE-EARTH, but possibly Wolfe's\nessay\nwas rejected because the image of Tolkien as propagandist for a society in\nwhich the lower orders cheerfully obey and serve their betters was not one\nthe editor wanted to project." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But no, no, no, Wolfe is not propagandising for feudalism.\n\n\n\nThere is one very real sense in which the Dark Ages were the brightest of\ntimes, and it is this: that they were times of defined and definite duties\nand freedoms.\n\n\n\nI understand that could be a mistake one would make reading this essay, but\nhe is talking about something much more like libertarianism: freedom,\nliberty and *property*. . This has absolutely nohing to do with supporting\ntyranny, (and if conservatism is about supporting tyranny, Wolfe is not a\nconservative)\n\n\n\nWe might have a society in which the laws were few and just, simple,\npermanent, and familiar to everyone -- a society in which everyone stood\nshoulder-to-shoulder because everyone lived by the same changeless rules,\nand everyone knew what those rules were. When we had it, we would also have\na society in which the lack of wealth was not reason for resentment but a\nspur to ambition, and in which wealth was not a cause for self-indulgence\nbut a call to service.\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Between this and Wolfe's comments on 9-11 I'm learning more about Wolfe's\npolitics than I think I want to know, and I fear for THE WIZARD KNIGHT." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is a Conservative Catholic Christian right-winger. Deal With It!!!!\n\n\nAll his writing from THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS onward (apart from the odd\npotboiler) has embodied this view of right and wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Terry Brooks again! First Pullman praises him, then Wolfe criticizes\nhis detractors. I've never read him, but can it be that his bad\nreputation\nis not entirely deserved?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This I cannot believe, even from the hand of the Wolfe.\n\n\n --- *** ---\n\n\n\nBut where are Wolfe's comments on 9/11, pray? I want to read them.\n\n\n\n\nYours in Conservative hufpuffery\n\n\n Andy Robertson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telusplanet.net" }, "date": "2002-01-02T18:42:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andy --\n\nHere's Alice's original post re. Wolfe on 9-11.\n\nJohn\n\n\nSubject: (urth) take 'em, tiger\n Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:37:38 -0800 (PST)\n From: aturner3 \n Reply-To: urth at lists.best.com\n To: urth at lists1.ba.best.com\n\nA message from Wolfe:\n\n? Pioneer Press September 27, 2001\nA guest essay by Gene Wolfe, published in a Chicago-area local\nnewspaper, is unfortunately not online. Wolfe urges citizens to act\nquickly, and pressure the politicians to take action... \n\nWe will be told that the perpetrators (and only the perpetrators) must\nbe punished, and that the greatest pains must be taken to make certain\nno innocent person suffers. That sounds much better than saying no\naction should be taken, but it comes to the same thing. The perpetrators\ncannot be punished. They died in the planes they hijacked and are beyond\nour reach. It is not possible to fight a war (not even a losing war)\nwithout causing innocent people to suffer. \n\nWolfe's recommendations for immediate action: 1) declare war on nations\nthat harbor terrorists; 2) arm the plane crews; 3) seal the borders; 4)\nreturn non-citizens to their homelands; 5) root out terrorist\norganizations everywhere; and 6) stop pressuring Israel to go soft on\nterrorists. \n\n\n%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%\n\nHere's Jim Jordan's response:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:37 AM 12/1/2001 -0800, Alice wrote:\nWolfe's recommendations for immediate action: 1) declare war on nations that\nharbor terrorists; 2) arm the plane crews; 3) seal the borders; 4) return\nnon-citizens to their homelands; 5) root out terrorist organizations\neverywhere; and 6) stop pressuring Israel to go soft on terrorists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "#s3. & 4. seem extreme. As for #1., I prefer the analogy of declaring\nwar on the Barbary Pirates. Declare war on Al Qaeda and anyone similar,\nnot on nations qua nations, unless things change. That would cover #5.\nIraq is a special case; I think Bush has done correctly to say let the\nUN inspectors back in now, or else.... I agree with #6, though I think\nIsrael needs to correct some things in her behavior also.\n\nThe main thing, I think, is not to be naive about Islam in general and \nradical Islamism in particular. The American understanding of society is \nrooted in Christian notions, that God is One but also a Community, so\nthat there are multiple \"heirarchies\" and \"spheres\" in life (church,\nstate, family, media, business, etc.), and that love & reasonable\npersuasion is the best way to function in community. Islam is purely\nmonotheistic, with one hierarchy from Allah to men to women & children &\nslaves, a hierarchy based solely on power and not moderated by love and\npersuasion. Though many Westerners are not Christian by personal\ncommittment, they have been influenced by these Christian (and partly\nAthenian) ideas; and of course many people in Islam have been influenced\nby Western ideas. But pure Islam, and thus the Islamic militant revival,\nrejects those moderating ideas. What they understand is power, and it is\nimportant for the West (America in this case) to show Great Power, the\n\"big footprint,\" in suppressing radical Islamism. Neither kindness nor\nreasonable persuasion are going to work on people who want to keep their\nwomen in total subjection -- and I think the \"liberation\" of women is\none of the main, if not THE main, threat/s these particular people fear\nand loathe. (Consider the Taliban.)\n\nFWIW\n\nJim Jordan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-01-02T20:24:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nAnd Terry Brooks again! First Pullman praises him, then Wolfe criticizes\nhis detractors. I've never read him, but can it be that his bad reputation\nis not entirely deserved?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Wolfe isn't saying Brooks is good. He's criticizing those who slam\nBrooks for being a Tolkien ripoff. Wolfe wants more Tolkien ripoffs and\nclaims to be a Tolkien ripoff himself. \n\nIt's OK to slam Brooks for being bad, just don't slam him for trying to\nwrite the kind of books that Wolfe wants to read.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2002-01-02T21:51:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:24 PM 1/2/2002 -0500, you wrote:\nOn Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Terry Brooks again! First Pullman praises him, then Wolfe criticizes\nhis detractors. I've never read him, but can it be that his bad reputation\nis not entirely deserved?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. Wolfe isn't saying Brooks is good. He's criticizing those who slam\nBrooks for being a Tolkien ripoff. Wolfe wants more Tolkien ripoffs and\nclaims to be a Tolkien ripoff himself.\n\nIt's OK to slam Brooks for being bad, just don't slam him for trying to\nwrite the kind of books that Wolfe wants to read.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe did have some nice things to say about Stephen Lawhead, to me, a few \nyears ago. I imagine he considers Lawhead to be carrying the Tolkein torch \npretty well. Never read Lawhead myself.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }