{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2881", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2881, "subject": "The Best Introduction to the Mountains", "messages": 9, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-01-03T00:23:30+00:00", "last": "2002-01-03T23:16:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "hse at telus.net" }, "date": "2002-01-03T00:57:16+00:00", "subject": "The Best Introduction to the Mountains", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many thanks to Andy Robertson for posting this fascinating essay.\n\nThere is much to discuss (for example, that Wolfe seems to have even lousier\ntaste in poetry than Tolkien).\n\nTwo points:\n\n(1) Ursula K. LeGuin long ago wrote the perfect riposte to Wolfe's political\ntake, complaining that \"Sam... keeps saying 'sir' to Fordo until one begins\nto have made visions of founding a Hobbit Socialist Party.\"\n\n(2) In Wolfe's account of allowing himself to read \"no more than a single\nchapter each evening,\" but allowing himself to re-read the book up to that\npoint as many times as he wishes, do we not have the source for Latro's\nhaving to re-read his own life each day?\n\nRussell Wodell" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-03T00:23:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Best Introduction to the Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Russell Wodell\" \nThere is much to discuss (for example, that Wolfe seems to have even\nlousier\ntaste in poetry than Tolkien)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree, but then I would." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(1) Ursula K. LeGuin long ago wrote the perfect riposte to Wolfe's\npolitical\ntake, complaining that \"Sam... keeps saying 'sir' to Fordo until one\nbegins\nto have made visions of founding a Hobbit Socialist Party.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Moorcock famously said \"I am an Orc\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Davis", "address": "matthew at michaelscycles.freeserve.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-03T03:05:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Best Introduction to the Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you want to read LOTR as one of the last gasp of anglo-catholic feudalism\nthen you couldn't go amiss reading it alongside \"Brideshead Revisted\" (in\nfact now I remember that Humphrey Carpenter has written extensively about\nboth Tolkien and Waugh.hmmm) and also tracking down the massive one-volume\ncollection of Evelyn Waugh's non-fiction. Waugh is always articulate,\nconcise and rarely fuddy-duddy in expressing what burgeoning socialist,\nindustrial modernity means in the sense of loss of a unified vision of\nsociety where all men at different stage contribute to the commonweal of a\nsociety and how this is embodied in a national tradition to which everyone\nparticipates. Just as Tolkien offers a vision of Elves, Dwarves, wizards,\nHobbits, etc contributing each in their specific fashion and all the made-up\ntraditions and languages which he always say was the underlying reason for\nLOTR.\n\nAs for poetry - yes, it does seem that English speaking Catholics in the\ntwentieth century lost all sense of taste. There is a pervading stink of\nChesterton and snug-room balladry." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-01-03T16:59:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/2/02 8:53 AM, Andy Robertson at andywrobertson at clara.co.uk wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Adam Stephanides\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I haven't looked at MEDITATIONS ON MIDDLE-EARTH, but possibly Wolfe's\nessay\nwas rejected because the image of Tolkien as propagandist for a society in\nwhich the lower orders cheerfully obey and serve their betters was not one\nthe editor wanted to project." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But no, no, no, Wolfe is not propagandising for feudalism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not feudalism, but an idealized version of Merrie Olde England, in which the\nsquire or local aristocrat (or factory owner) is the acknowledged leader of\nthe community, dispensing counsel and noblesse in exchange for the gratitude\nand obedience of the little people; but with some opportunity for social\nmobility thrown in. In other words, an organic society, and one which would\nin practice require strict limitations on the free market to maintain,\nalthough I'm sure Wolfe thinks of himself as a libertarian too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I understand that could be a mistake one would make reading this essay, but\nhe is talking about something much more like libertarianism: freedom,\nliberty and *property*. . This has absolutely nohing to do with supporting\ntyranny, (and if conservatism is about supporting tyranny, Wolfe is not a\nconservative)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That reading, though, doesn't account for this passage:\n\n\"Philology led him [Tolkien] to the study of the largely illiterate\nsocieties of Northern Europe between the fall of Rome and the beginning of\nthe true Middle Ages (roughly AD 400 to 1000). There he found a quality --\nlet us call it Folk Law -- that has almost disappeared from his world and\nours. It is the neighbour-love and settled customary goodness of the Shire.\nFrodo is \"rich\" in comparison to Sam, though no dragon would call Frodo\nrich; Sam is poor in comparison to Frodo, though Sam is far richer than\nGollum, who has been devoured by the tyranny and corruption of the One Ring.\nFrodo does not despise Sam for his poverty, he employs him; and Sam does not\ndetest Frodo for his wealth, but is grateful for the job. Most central of\nall, the difference in their positions does not prevent their friendship.\nAnd in the end, poor Sam rises in the estimation of the Shire because of his\nassociation with Frodo, and rich Frodo sacrifices himself for the good of\nall the Sams. \n\n\"A different illustration is found among the elves of Lorien, in their love\nof beauty and their love of nature. They are Sylvan Elves (East Elves) but\nthe rulers they choose to obey are Eldar (West Elves). They choose to be\nruled by people better than themselves, in other words, exactly as we choose\nto be ruled by people worse. Most clearly of all it is shown in their will\nto preserve the wisdom of the First Age.\n\n\"Earlier I asked what Tolkien did and how he came to do it; we have reached\nthe point at which the first question can be answered.\"\n\nWolfe's illustrations of Tolkien's \"discovery,\" which he allegedly wrote\nLOTR to propagandize for, both center on the willingness of people to serve\nand be led by their \"betters.\"\n\nAnd if he is really talking about libertarianism, it's curious he should\npick the \"Dark Ages\" as his exemplar, a time not particularly known for\nsecurity of property." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Between this and Wolfe's comments on 9-11 I'm learning more about Wolfe's\npolitics than I think I want to know, and I fear for THE WIZARD KNIGHT." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is a Conservative Catholic Christian right-winger. Deal With It!!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew that (although I was unpleasantly surprised to learn that he\nadvocated deporting all non-citizens). But his sudden political\noutspokenness has me worried that THE WIZARD KNIGHT may be an explicitly\npropagandistic book, as his other books haven't been. I'm not fond of\ndidactic novels, even when they express points of view I agree with.\n\nLafferty, whom I also love, is an even more right-wing Catholic than Wolfe,\nbut he's eccentric enough so that even his didactic stuff is interesting,\nthough not his best work. This isn't true of Wolfe, IMO.\n\n--Adam " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-01-03T17:01:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Best Introduction to the Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/2/02 6:57 PM, Russell Wodell at hse at telus.net wrote:\nThere is much to discuss (for example, that Wolfe seems to have even lousier\ntaste in poetry than Tolkien)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Thoreau bit (which I rather liked) was also quoted in \"Death of the\nIsland Doctor,\" iirc. I hadn't known it was by Thoreau, though.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-03T17:36:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Stephanides\" \nNot feudalism, but an idealized version of Merrie Olde England, in which\nthe\nsquire or local aristocrat (or factory owner) is the acknowledged leader\nof\nthe community, dispensing counsel and noblesse in exchange for the\ngratitude\nand obedience of the little people; but with some opportunity for social\nmobility thrown in. In other words, an organic society, and one which\nwould\nin practice require strict limitations on the free market to maintain,\nalthough I'm sure Wolfe thinks of himself as a libertarian too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absent the silly sneers, \"an organic society\" is the just word\n\nI think a quick summary of Wolfe's position on social hierarchy would be.\nSomeone is going to be in charge. No society has ever dodged inequality.\nIn an \"organic\" society those on top are linked by moral bonds to everyone,\nincluding the very poor. In short, if they are \"better\" than the lower\norders, they had damn well better act better, not simply richer.\n\nJust how Wolfe hopes to get from here to there he does not state. It's a\ndream, not a map. Criticise away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lafferty, whom I also love, is an even more right-wing Catholic than\nWolfe,\nbut he's eccentric enough so that even his didactic stuff is interesting,\nthough not his best work. This isn't true of Wolfe, IMO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Wolfe's most deeply political works include, for example, \"The Eyeflash\nMiracles\", \"The Hero As Werwolf\", and \"The Death of Doctor Island\".\n\nIn these and many others Wolfe sets out a little guy getting crushed by the\nactions of a universalist, and supposedly benevolent, State.\n\nThe political message is not the whole of these stories, but it is\nunmistakable: the government is more dangerous than any tyrant, because it\nacts under a fiction of the greater good.\n\nSurely this is obvious?\n\n\n Andy R" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-01-03T20:00:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson wrote:\nThe political message is not the whole of these stories, but it is\nunmistakable: the government is more dangerous than any tyrant, because it\nacts under a fiction of the greater good.\n\nSurely this is obvious?\n\n\n Andy R" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is obvious?:\na) the government is more dangerous than any tyrant?\nb) that this is what Wolfe thinks?\n\nIf we stick with b), it might be interesting to note that (afaik) Wolfe \nhas not written a story\nin which the government is a theocracy. It's easier to criticize from \nthe outside. It might also\nbring up some embarrasing situations for the RCC, Wolfe's church of \nchoice and possibly the\nmost bureaucratic institution on the planet.\n\nTom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-03T19:06:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Thomas Bitterman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which is obvious?:\na) the government is more dangerous than any tyrant?\nb) that this is what Wolfe thinks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "b) of course.\n\nI guess we should attempt to sheer off from direct political arguments, but\nit seems legit to discuss Wolfe's politics in connection with his writing.\n\nI agree that he is good at showing what he thinks is *wrong*, but of course\nit is much harder to try to show and defend what is *right*.\n\nI would suggest that the Whorl books contain a lot of experimental writing\nabout the forms of politics.\n\nIf none of the city-states described there are utopian, I can only suggest\nthat that is because Wolfe does not think Utopia acheivable in this life.\n\n\n Andy R" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2002-01-03T23:16:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Best Introduction To The Mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Politics and Religions are supposed to be off-limits in polite \nconversation, but when discussing Wolfe they are inescapable. So, without \nwishing to open a can of worms, I'd like to try to shed a tad (only a tad) \nof light on how Wolfe almost certainly thinks about the following \nobservations from Adam.\n A couple of selected quotations from Adam:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't looked at MEDITATIONS ON MIDDLE-EARTH, but possibly Wolfe's \nessay was rejected because the image of Tolkien as propagandist for a \nsociety in which the lower orders cheerfully obey and serve their betters \nwas not one the editor wanted to project." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe's illustrations of Tolkien's \"discovery,\" which he allegedly wrote\nLOTR to propagandize for, both center on the willingness of people to serve\nand be led by their \"betters.\"\n\nAnd if he is really talking about libertarianism, it's curious he should\npick the \"Dark Ages\" as his exemplar, a time not particularly known for\nsecurity of property." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The \"Christian model\" of societal hierarchy, to which Wolfe surely \nsubscribes, and which people on this list are free to reject, affirms the \nfollowing matters, among others:\n 1. The poor you will always have with you. Some people just won't \nbe able to \"make it.\"\n 1a. Corollary: Some people need to be taken care of, by others.\n 2. Some people have a gift for leadership, and others (most) are \ngifted in other areas of life.\n 2a. Corollary: Pure democracy is nonsense, though a relative \ndemocracy such as the American Constitution envisioned is a good thing. To \nwit: a variety of ways of selecting leaders, checks and balances in a \ndiversified government, and rulers at various levels (county, state, \nfederal) -- all of which is a Protestantized feudal order.\n 3. People usually but not always grow into their callings as a \nresult of their upbringing.\n 3a. Corollary: Some kind of political aristocracy, with sons (and \ndaughters nowadays) reared for rule, in inescapable: Kennedys, Bushes, etc. \nThe \"skull & bones\" elite.\" The Eastern Establishment. Etc.\n 4. The way differently gifted people relate to one another should \nbe through mutual service and joy in being who they are and in doing what \nthey do best. The artisan enjoys his work, and does it to produce things \nfor others to buy. Same with the auto mechanic. Same with the ruler, who is \nto serve his people with wisdom. This is not a matter of \"lessers\" serving \n\"betters,\" but of mutual service of various sorts. Jesus said, \"He who \nwould be great among you must be slave of all.\" One example: Entrepreneurs \nbecome rich by seeing what other people need and/or want, and by serving \nthem by providing it. Monopolists, on the other hand, become rich by \n\"lording it over\" other people, and preventing competition.\n 4a. Thus, Samwise (wise) enjoys being Sam. He would not enjoy \nbeing Aragorn. Neither would I, and I would not be any good at being Sam \neither -- my automobile is worked on by others; they serve me by fixing it, \nand I serve them by paying them.\n In short, some kind of societal hierarchy is inescapable. The \nquestions are whether those who rule do so by \"lording it over\" others, or \nby serving them; and whether those who are ruled delight in being freed \nfrom the burdens of rule so that they can happily pursue their callings, or \ndesire to usurp functions for which they are not gifted and not prepared; \nand whether the ruled are perhaps provoked to consider such a usurpation by \nthe evil behavior of the rulers.\n Thus, I did not read Wolfe's article as saying that Tolkein had \n\"discovered\" a society where the lessers delight to serve their betters -- \nthough Adam may be right that those who rejected his essay thought he was \nsaying this -- but as saying Tolkein was reflecting on the nature of \nsocietal hierarchy as delineated above. The society of Tolkein's and \nWolfe's vision is not \"equality\" (i.e., identity, everyone the same), but \n\"mutuality\" (everyone serving everyone else with his/her particular gifts).\n Finally, \"dark ages\" is just sarcasm. What most of us were taught \nin high school about this period is mostly rubbish, and Wolfe knows it (or \nbelieves it, anyway).\n Nobody has to agree with Wolfe (or me) about any of this. I just \noffer it as a way of understanding where he is coming from. FWIW. Feel free \nto push \"delete,\" but read the next paragraph first:\n On another topic: Wolfe's statement that he read only one chapter \nper day or LOTR is surely a clue as to how he has written his own epic \nworks, and how they might be profitably read, such as carefully taking into \naccount what things are put together in each chapter.\n\nPatera Nutria" } ] } ] }