{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2884", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2884, "subject": "Tolkien essay, pre-publication history", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-01-04T22:14:15+00:00", "last": "2002-01-05T04:07:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-01-04T22:14:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tolkien essay, pre-publication history", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are told that Gene Wolfe's Tolkien essay was written for that book of\nessays on Tolkien, but it was not published there after all, and was\npublished in \"Interzone.\"\n\nFollowing these facts, there has been some speculation as to how or why the\nbook editors may have rejected the essay on aesthetic grounds. In addition\nto all the Religion & Politics stuff.\n\nI know the pre-publication history of a number of Wolfe stories--yes, it is\ntrue, however shocking/comforting it might be, that Gene Wolfe stories are\nsometimes rejected by genre magazines, even in the last ten years. So\nrejection is naturally not impossible.\n\nBut with regard to this essay, since I doubt very much that any \"rejection\nspeculation\" is based on second-hand evidence, I'm going to offer some\nincidental second-hand evidence.\n\nIn June of last year I received a letter from Gene Wolfe. Mostly it was\nabout many other things, but in the end he did mention that he was having\ndifficulty with the company that was supposed to publish his Tolkien essay.\nThey wanted him to secure written permissions for =every= quote, including\nthe personal letter from Tolkien to Gene Wolfe and the poem by Noyes (who\ndied in 1958). (Those of us who have read the essay also would add Robert\nE. Howard, at least. There are a lot of quotes!) This seemed insane to\nGene Wolfe, in the modern day where Harlan Ellison is trying so hard to\nstop people from web-publishing entire sf stories without permission from\nthe sf author.\n\n(Well those of us who have followed such things in US publishing can say,\n\"Thank you, J.D. Salinger.\")\n\nIn any event, Gene Wolfe wrote pretty unambiguously in the letter that the\nproject was dead from his point of view. Non-compliance on his part.\n\nAnd lo, the essay did not appear in the US book; but it did appear in a UK\nmagazine.\n\nSo it seems to me that if there was any \"rejection\" involved with the\nTolkien book, it was Gene Wolfe's rejection of the terms and subsequent\nwithdrawal of the essay.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-04T22:35:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tolkien essay, pre-publication history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe wrote to me, when questioned on this very point:\n\n\n\nI would say \"rejected.\" If you prefer \"refused\" or \"withdrawn\" I will not\nobject.\n\n\nMe, I think Haber understood the political implications of Wolfe's essay and\nwanted to squelch it.\n\n\n\n Andy Robertson\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" \nTo: \nSo it seems to me that if there was any \"rejection\" involved with the\nTolkien book, it was Gene Wolfe's rejection of the terms and subsequent\nwithdrawal of the essay.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-01-05T04:07:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tolkien essay, pre-publication history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson wrote:\nGene Wolfe wrote to me, when questioned on this very point:\n\n\n\nI would say \"rejected.\" If you prefer \"refused\" or \"withdrawn\" I will not\nobject.\n\n\nMe, I think Haber understood the political implications of Wolfe's essay and\nwanted to squelch it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Touche'! Well that certainly trumps =mine=! (Teach me to open my mouth ).\n\nSo Big Cheers for \"Interzone\" for daring to Publish that which was\nSquelched! And the land of Tolkien and Chesterton (the essay makes me think\nof THE NAPOLEON OF NOTTING HILL)!\n\nTo Nutria, thanks for the support, especially since we've just been trumped.\n\nBut with regard to publishers, before we get off into another tangent, no,\n(as I understand it) in this day and age it really is quite ordinary in\nthe US for publishers to put the burden on the authors in cases like this\n(which can be rationalized as being because the publisher will have to pay\nif it goes to court). The essay is greatly enriched by all the quotes, but\nif getting permission is too great a burden, then the author can always\nparaphrase, describe (\"poem x by author y, lines z to a\"), etc.\n\nWhich obviously would water-down the essay. Or make it look like it had\nbeen through a prison-grade censor.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2002-01-05T02:30:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tolkien essay, pre-publication history", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis,\n This sounds very credible to me. I don't know about the Tolkein \npeople, but I can tell you that in theological circles it is regarded as \nrisky to quote C. S. Lewis without permission, which used to require paying \nmoney sometimes, and may still do so. Of course, the Lewis estate is \nnotorious, as is the whole post-Lewis history of Lewis's works.\n It does seem to me, though, that it is the editor's/publisher's \njob to get such permissions in a multi-author work which is perforce all \nabout Tolkein. Why should Wolfe have to get his own special permission?\n At any rate, in the absence of a statement from Wolfe or someone \nin the know, your speculation makes a lot of sense.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:14 PM 1/4/2002 -0800, you wrote:\nWe are told that Gene Wolfe's Tolkien essay was written for that book of\nessays on Tolkien, but it was not published there after all, and was\npublished in \"Interzone.\"\n\nFollowing these facts, there has been some speculation as to how or why the\nbook editors may have rejected the essay on aesthetic grounds. In addition\nto all the Religion & Politics stuff.\n\nI know the pre-publication history of a number of Wolfe stories--yes, it is\ntrue, however shocking/comforting it might be, that Gene Wolfe stories are\nsometimes rejected by genre magazines, even in the last ten years. So\nrejection is naturally not impossible.\n\nBut with regard to this essay, since I doubt very much that any \"rejection\nspeculation\" is based on second-hand evidence, I'm going to offer some\nincidental second-hand evidence.\n\nIn June of last year I received a letter from Gene Wolfe. Mostly it was\nabout many other things, but in the end he did mention that he was having\ndifficulty with the company that was supposed to publish his Tolkien essay.\nThey wanted him to secure written permissions for =every= quote, including\nthe personal letter from Tolkien to Gene Wolfe and the poem by Noyes (who\ndied in 1958). (Those of us who have read the essay also would add Robert\nE. Howard, at least. There are a lot of quotes!) This seemed insane to\nGene Wolfe, in the modern day where Harlan Ellison is trying so hard to\nstop people from web-publishing entire sf stories without permission from\nthe sf author.\n\n(Well those of us who have followed such things in US publishing can say,\n\"Thank you, J.D. Salinger.\")\n\nIn any event, Gene Wolfe wrote pretty unambiguously in the letter that the\nproject was dead from his point of view. Non-compliance on his part.\n\nAnd lo, the essay did not appear in the US book; but it did appear in a UK\nmagazine.\n\nSo it seems to me that if there was any \"rejection\" involved with the\nTolkien book, it was Gene Wolfe's rejection of the terms and subsequent\nwithdrawal of the essay.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] } ] }