{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2890", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2890, "subject": "Digest from urth@urth.net", "messages": 37, "voices": 22, "first": "2002-01-29T14:26:22+00:00", "last": "2002-09-06T23:59:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pat O'Leary", "address": "poleary at cecom.com" }, "date": "2002-01-29T14:26:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good job man!\n\nOne problem: I seem to be getting the list twice each time.\nOne from urth...and one from Ranjit...\n\nCan you fix that?\n\nbest\n\nPatrick O'leary\n\nQuestions or problems: write ranjit at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Bishop", "address": "jbishop at zko.dec.com" }, "date": "2002-01-30T22:20:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a problem with the digest format.\n\nIt comes to me as a series of attached files,\none per message, each of which I have to expand\nif I wish to read it, schematically:\n\n [Part 1.1]\n [Part 1.2]\n :\n [Part 1.N]\n\nThe old digest used to come as one long file,\nwith messages in plain text, one after another,\nschematically:\n\n msg one body, blah blah...\n msg two body, so and so, such and such...\n :\n msg N body, details and arguments...\n\nI _much_ prefer the old system. Can the new\none be changed?\n\n\t-John Bishop\nQuestions or problems: write ranjit at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ashley Crill", "address": "ashley.crill at student.oc.edu" }, "date": "2002-01-31T08:59:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "when I try to open the message, it doesn't work\n\n\t-----Original Message----- \n\tFrom: urth at urth.net \n\tSent: Wed 1/30/2002 11:01 PM \n\tTo: Digest_Members \n\tCc: \n\tSubject: Digest from urth at urth.net\n\t\n\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Grupsmith", "address": "lgrupsmith at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-01-31T16:53:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any way to format the Digest so I can see all the messages at once?\nWhat I'm getting is a series of attachments that each need to be opened\nseparately..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2002-02-01T05:44:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apropos Aegypt-iv" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..be next year; it's going to\nbe much shorter than the previous ones. Maybe 2004. I know Crowley wants to\nwind up the series, and who can blame him.\n-a-" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the Xmas party, Pierce meets a strange man who seems upset with the\nway things are going in _Daemonomania_.\n\n| David Duffy. ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, The Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia v" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-02-07T16:27:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hyacinth, or whatever s/he represents, blooms as a \nflower. Perhaps these recombinations offer some hope for destitute\nhumanity, \ncrushed under the tyranny of wicked men. It seems to me that the passage \naptly states that a definite hope for a return from doom lies in the \ntransformation to ever-blooming flora. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahem.\n\nNot to be always harping on the obvious... but...\n\nWolfe, as a committed Christian, certainly believes that the only real \nhope for the human race lies in a hybrid (of God and Man) and in a very \nreal transformation of humanity - both the individual human person and\nthe whole human race. The Catholic Church would, I believe, add that \nthis transformation (into an eternal and \"glorified\" form - thus \"ever-\nblooming\" indeed) can come about only through the 'ingestion' of the \nbody of the hybrid, which changes us to be \"more conformed\" to the \n\"image\" of the hybrid. And, as with Hyacinth, the true salvation or\ntransformation comes (can come) only after the death of this physical \nself.\n\nFlowers in general, and roses in particular, are also a common figure\nfor Christ (the word \"ever-blooming\" reminds me in particular of the \nold Christmas song \"Lo! How a rose ever-blooming\":\n\nLo, how a rose e'er blooming\nFrom tender stem hath sprung!\nOf Jesse's lineage coming\nAs men of old have sung\nIt came, a floweret bright\nAmid the cold of winter\nWhen half spent was the night \n\nIsaiah 'twas foretold it\nThe rose I have in mind\nWith Mary we behold it\nThe Virgin Mother kind\nTo show God's love aright\nShe bore to men a Saviour\nWhen half spent was the night \n\nO Saviour, Child of Mary\nWho felt our human woe\nO Saviour, King of glory\nWho dost our weakness know\nBring us at length, we pray\nTo the bright courts of heaven\nAnd to the endless day \n)\n\nHappy Thursday." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Laidlow", "address": "ultan01 at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-02-08T09:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a note to say that Peter Wright has written a\npiece on 5th Head for the Ultan's Library e-journal\nwhich we posted before Xmas. We will shortly be\nposting infamous 5th Head afficionado Robert Borski's\nresponse to the piece, just as soon as we can get it\nedited.\n\nurl: http://www.ultan.co.uk\n\n- Jonathan Laidlow" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-02-09T02:36:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Laidlow wrote:\nJust a note to say that Peter Wright has written a\npiece on 5th Head for the Ultan's Library e-journal\nwhich we posted before Xmas. We will shortly be\nposting infamous 5th Head afficionado Robert Borski's\nresponse to the piece, just as soon as we can get it\nedited.\n\nurl: http://www.ultan.co.uk" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW I read the essay and enjoyed it. It is mainly about things and issues\nsurrounding Colonizer/Colonized, a reading of 5HC that addresses\nColonialism. It starts off with a survey of what has been written over the\nyears on this aspect of 5HC. Using this to set the context, Wright then\ngoes further than any have dared before.\n\nGo read it now.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n57 Lexicons left until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-02-11T19:33:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hartshorn wrote:\nHas anyone given any seriouss thought to the treatment of race \nin Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes.\n\nThere is an interesting comment, and I cannot for the life of me remember\nwhether it is somewhere in tBotNS or, perhaps, Castle of the Otter - but\nWolfe-or-his-narrator comments that each of the continents of [Earth|Urth]\nhas a racial \"type\" which is proper to it, and that whoever colonizes that \ncontinent winds up conforming to that type in about two thousand years. \n\nSort of post-adaptationism?\n\nI'll try to look for that quote when I do my big reread of the Sun books\nlater this year...\n\n--D" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-02-12T09:05:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) RE: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nThere is an interesting comment, and I cannot for the life of me remember\nwhether it is somewhere in tBotNS or, perhaps, Castle of the Otter - but\nWolfe-or-his-narrator comments that each of the continents of [Earth|Urth]\nhas a racial \"type\" which is proper to it, and that whoever colonizes that\ncontinent winds up conforming to that type in about two thousand years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is on BONS somewhere. I always wondered at that. How come the\ninhabitants of this future South America are (mostly) European and white,\neven blond?\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-02-12T14:36:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) RE: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hartshorn wrote:\nIt is on BONS somewhere. I always wondered at that. How come the\ninhabitants of this future South America are (mostly) European and white,\neven blond?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, because they are descendents of invaders who arrived less than the\nmagic mutational number of chiliads ago? (My recollection was that in\nSeverian's musing it was 10 or more chiliads.) Just like South America\ntoday?\n\nLike that old joke: \"What do you call a group of people who have lived in\nthe arctic circle for ten thousand years?\"\n\nAnswer: \"Blond.\"\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2002-02-15T07:15:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From urth at urth.net Fri Feb 15 17:09:21 2002\nDate: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:04:25 +1000 (EST)\nFrom: urth at urth.net\nTo: Digest_Members at mailhub1.uq.edu.au\nSubject: Digest from urth at urth.net\n\n\nJason Ingram wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga,\n\nThose titles sound interesting. I've been researching related topics\n(which are more pertinent to John Crowley, but still relevant to\nWolfe), and fictional accounts should help to sustain interest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thank you for this--it is particularly interesting to me as I have just\nfinished reading THE ABYSS, by Margaret Yourcenar, an account of a\n\nrecently read THE CHYMICAL WEDDING, by Lindsay Clarke. which is very" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The latter is pretty good, his other books have similar themes I think.\n\nPatrick White's _The Solid Mandala_ and possibly _Riders in the Chariot_\nhave quite well hidden kabbalistic themes IIRC; a quick web search only\nbrings up a discussion of Boehmian theology and _Voss_ -- he is a Nobel\nlaureate and so *high lit*, you know ;)\n\n\n| David Duffy. ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, The Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia v" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Seth Lombardi", "address": "sethlombardi at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2002-02-15T22:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum Said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk's body may not used to eating much. Remember in _Nightside_ where \ncouple fried tomatoes, and apple, and a crust of bread are a mouth-watering \nfeast? That was when he was a poor priest, but it's possible he continued \nto eat lightly and fast regularly even when he >was Calde and later when he \nlived with Hyacinth. Eat that way for >years and then suddenly start trying \nto eat like Horn was accustomed, >and you'll get pretty sick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have the text in front of me, but I seem to remember in one of the \ntwin's accounts of the whole boat/astral travel section at the end of RTW, \n\"Father\" raising a container of wine to his lips. This results in a \nnarrative comment from the twin that \"Father\" often seemed to only PRETENDED \nto eat or drink.\nWhich suggests something more sinister is going on. Not that I know what it \nis, other than extremely infuriating and disturbing! :P\n*****************************\nSeth Lombardi\nsethlombardi at hotmail.com\nhttp://pages.prodigy.net/nlom/blogg.html\nAIM: melombardi\n\"Two faces are alike; neither is funny by itself, but side by side their \nlikeness makes us laugh\" -Pascal" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-02-18T01:06:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Seth Lombardi\" \n\"Father\" raising a container of wine to his lips. This results in a\nnarrative comment from the twin that \"Father\" often seemed to only\nPRETENDED\nto eat or drink.\nWhich suggests something more sinister is going on. Not that I know what\nit\nis, other than extremely infuriating and disturbing! :P" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has long been speculated that Silk/Horn is an inhumi, or perhaps that the\n\"spirit\" that inhabits him was not that of Horn, but that of an inhumi who\ndrained Horn on Green and became compleetly convinced that he was human, was\nHorn.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-05T15:21:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to avoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to avoid further torment by\nthe in-dwelling demon summoned by the device. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device that\nliterally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather\nthan literal angels), I think that the Rev is meant to be an\nelectroshock device of fiendish refinement that divides the brain by\ndamaging tissue electrically and leaves the non-speaking part greatly\nresentful of the trauma and perhaps envious of the speaking part. \n\tThis would agree somewhat with studies of people who have had their\nbrains divided by damage or surgical severing of the corpus callosum,\nwhich GW already used in \"The Death of Doctor Island.\" This would\nexplain the image of the demon as having Thecla's face, since it is part\nof herself. \n\tThe division of functions is not the same as that in the RL documented\nprocedure, but this can be attributed to the refinement of the device by\nUrthly science, the general scientific accuracy of the Book, and perhaps\nan effort on Wolfe's part to display an internal division within human\nnature. The Revolutionary turns one against one's self by separating the\ndevil already inside from the mitigating moral conscience, or perhaps it\ninvolves original sin." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-05T15:42:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to avoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to avoid further torment by\nthe in-dwelling demon summoned by the device. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tThe division of functions is not the same as that in the RL documented\nprocedure, but this can be attributed to the refinement of the device by\nUrthly science, the general scientific accuracy of the Book, and perhaps\nan effort on Wolfe's part to display an internal division within human\nnature. The Revolutionary turns one against one's self by separating the\ndevil already inside from the mitigating moral conscience, or perhaps it\ninvolves original sin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes, but it's not clear whether\nThecla kills herself of her own volition to avoid further torment, or if\nby taking the knife she is allowing the \"demon\" self to kill her quickly\nrather than fight a slow, losing battle against it.\n\n(Like the difference between shooting myself to avoid being tortured by an\nenemy and handing the gun to my enemy and hoping to be shot rather than\ntortured to death.)\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-02T19:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I've been corresponding with Gene Wolfe for a few weeks now, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he has time to answer letters from fans.\"\n\nHow would one get in contact with Gene Wolfe? I wrote him a letter a while back and never got a reply. Does he have an email address?\n\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2002-04-03T08:06:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 20:27 2002-04-02, Stephen Case wrote:\n\"I've been corresponding with Gene Wolfe for a few weeks now, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he has time to answer letters from fans.\"\n\nHow would one get in contact with Gene Wolfe? I wrote him a letter a while back and never got a reply. Does he have an email address?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is probably obvious to most people, but it's worth saying anyway:\nanyone who has that email address must NEVER EVER mention it on the list,\nbecause it will be \"harvested\" and spammed to hell and back.\n\nAn unusually fierce\n\nSpectacled Bear.\n\nP.S. Also obvious, but worth saying for courtesy's sake, is that this\nwarning isn't directed at Stephen, Christopher, or any other individual.\nIt's entirely pre-emptive." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-24T05:29:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Mr Million v Oreb\nDate: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:49:07 +0100\nFrom: \"Andy Robertson\" \nReply-To: urth at urth.net\nTo: \n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are numerous documented cases of microcephalics with normal mental\nfunctionality; a lot of the human brain is redundant, something that is\nmentioned as a performance boosting factor in \"5HC\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am begnning to have serious doubts about the \"numerous microcephalics\"\nbeing true, and I'd appreciate a link to a primary source (not a dodgy\npopulist like Sagan). I have chased these rumors up before and they seem\nto come to nothing, or to ignore the fact that the \"normal\" person in fact\nhas serious behavioral deficiencies, though they may score averaage on an IQ\ntest. But I bow to correction on this point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, the microcephalics may have problems, but then so does Oreb; he\ncan't put more than two syllables together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that a human brain can work at half human size. After all, children\nmanage! But not at 1/10 or 1/40 human size." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Being a populist doesn't mean your figures are to be dismissed out of\nhand; for instance, Guinness. In fact, let's look at Guinness: the\nphotograph of the tiniest woman shows almost normal proportions on a\nwoman who's what, 29\" tall? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ". However, almost 10 years ago,\nPentium processors with 3.3 million transistors were running at 100\nmegahertz, for 3.3 x 10^14 switching events a second, and just consuming\na few watts.\n\nRay Kurzweil writes on this sort of comparison extensively; at current\nrate of development, computers will approach the complexity of the human\nbrain in terms of informational and interconnected capacity in about 30\nyears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for the correction. But the \"30 years to equality\" figure is one I\nhave heard before. Indeed I was hearing it 30 years ago, and I suspect we\nwill be hearing it 30 years from now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You must be thinking of something else, like \"Fusion in 10 years.\"\nKurzweil's prediction is based on Moore's Law vs. the physical biology\nof the brain; neither has been dramatically revised in decades. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-24T09:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHow do you explain the remarkable similarity of form and the ability\nto interbreed, then?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remarkable similarity of form to, and ability to interbreed with, human\nbeings, you mean? The explanation is that abos -are- human beings. They are\nthe descendants of prehistoric colonists from Earth. Wolfe goes out of his\nway to prime us with this idea in all three novellas in 5HC, and that's good\nenough for me." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at orpheus.qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2002-04-30T06:07:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having reread 5HC after reading all your insightful comments:\n\nVRT's father is deft enough to have made the arrowheads [viz Peace BTW],\nbut says his son could not have knapped them. That would be congruent\nwith the interpretation that only Victor's mother is full-blood. \n\nI think that the reading that Marsch killed Victor in a fit of jealousy\nand took over his identity through guilt is perfectly consistent with\nevery detail folks have brought up. Then, the \"story\" is a simple ;)\npsychodrama and the details such as Poictesme, Lemuria et are whimsies\non his part. This also makes sense thematically if all the abo's have\nbeen exterminated in the same way, so that ideas such as that of Veil\nare again reflections of guilt rather than reality. Also, Marsch in his\ndiscussions with Jeanine may have heard of No. 5's suggestions about\nLemuria. This reading can be seen to be David's side of the debate.\n\nThe inability to understand the knockings from the next cell, when he\nhas no trouble with the civilised coded taps of the other prisoners\nmight be indirect commentary on this.\n\nWRT Lemuria etc, I might bring in Morgana le Fay here, who also gives\nthese as cover stories in _Castleview_, where I think we are not\nintended to take them seriously. Supernatural beings love these kinds of\nstories as much as anyone else.\n\nApropos of nothing, Marsch's embroideries in the his other writings (he\nsays he has put in traps for his jailors), notably the 1-1/2 mile long\nmilitary spacecraft he sees in the company of VRT and his father.\n\nApropos of robots, the relationship No. 5 has with his captors is very\nmuch in keeping with the idea (which I think of as Lem-ian) that true\nartificial intelligences will be just as prone to curiosity about their\nown origins and limits, charitableness, madness, laziness, cheating, and\nvice as we natural intelligences. I think Wolfe is quite happy with the\nidea of free will being circumscribed by properties of the body and\nbrain in which the spirit is ensconced, as well as external events: this\nmakes me think of djinns who may be forced into actions against their\nwill by sorcery or foolish but completely binding promise, but who can\nstill choose to be good Muslims. \n\nDavid.\n\n\n| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-30T19:41:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- David Duffy wrote:\nHaving reread 5HC after reading all your insightful comments:\n\nVRT's father is deft enough to have made the arrowheads [viz Peace BTW],\nbut says his son could not have knapped them. That would be congruent\nwith the interpretation that only Victor's mother is full-blood. \n\nI think that the reading that Marsch killed Victor in a fit of jealousy\nand took over his identity through guilt is perfectly consistent with\nevery detail folks have brought up. Then, the \"story\" is a simple ;)\npsychodrama and the details such as Poictesme, Lemuria et are whimsies\non his part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nVery tempting--sort of \"Fondly Fahrenheit\"-ish--but I think you have\nto assume that afterwards Marsch revised his journals, at least to say\nthat Victor has unusual green eyes, which Number Five tells us that\nJohn V. Marsch has too. Of course, Marsch could conceivably have made\nthat revision, even in his former handwriting. Then the officer who\nreads the journals could fail to notice that that part of the sentence\nhad been added in the margin or whatever, or the italicized narration\ncould fail to mention that he noticed. Hardly seems fair on Wolfe's\npart, though. I think there are some other correspondences between\nMarsch's descriptions of Victor and our later knowledge of John V.\nMarsch, but I can't remember any.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2002-05-20T00:49:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The point of the pure \"story suite\" is that the stories\nactually comment on and, in a sense, revise each other -- that the whole\nis not only greater than the sum of the parts, but _different_ from the\nsum of the parts; the parts heterodyne or synergize or whatever this\nyear's term is for things working together to produce effects not clearly\nobvious from the two separately." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mosaic (as I am understanding the term) is somewhere in between --\nthe stories are more separate, like the stories of a \"series,\" but work\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are all shadings that merely reflect the sophistication of the\nwriter and timing of how the stories were written. Take _The Sound and\nthe Fury_: if the different parts had been written and published\nseparately, would it stop being a novel? Alan Garner's _The Stone Book\nQuartet_ (recently read) is four stories written one and two years apart\neach covering one generation in the life of a family -- each episode\ncomments on earlier action and reveals motivationsi, and I can see it\njust as easily as a novel. Stories told by multiple tellers from the\nsame tradition, or a single author trying to imitate such a tradition,\ncan be contradictory and mutually informative (the four gospels).\n\n| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2002-05-24T03:26:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "alga said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... There are devils and angels in this book. (I prefer to call\nthem demons and cherubim, but I'm not getting much of a response.) There is\nThe interesting point, to me, is whether the inhumi can really be considered\n\"evil.\" In a debate, I'd enjoy taking the side that they are not. And that\nWolfe shows the humans, who do not have their needs and nature, as more\nevil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Rostrum said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, I think its implied that the inhumi are as much persons\nas chems. Their souls may be derivative, but they are real, and they seem\nto be capable of making real choices to do good or evil. I think their\nnature makes it very difficult to do good, but not impossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We were told that the Neighbours carried inhumi to the Whorl,\npossibly deliberately, which doesn't seem like a very angelic thing to\ndo ;). Perhaps Quetzal is what a Neighbourly inhuma is like.\n\nWolfe definitely is of the genre, and presumably has read some of the\nsympathetic SFnal treatments of vampires eg Sime-Gen, Octavia Butler,\nMartin. I do see the settlement of the US say Comanches (or other\ngroups with a bloodthirsty reputation) v. settlers as a model. Turning\nto the early Christian church as another model, one might well expect\n\"the conversion of the inhumi\" to take several generations (so they are\nnot irredeemably evil ;)).\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "PMorris33", "address": "pmorris33 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-05-26T08:08:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I, too have had some difficulty and disappointment with TBOSS. Same feeling \nas when I finished the Gregory Benford \"Ocean, River, Sea\" series and David \nBrin's last Uplift series. Too metaphysical, too diffuse, too vague. The \nnarrative drive seems exhausted and the author gets really wooly. \n\nMaybe, I just don't like endings \n\nPip" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Priddy", "address": "mossmail at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-27T12:32:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My question to William and anyone else who cares to\nanswer is this: Have\nyou ever received a revelatory message about a\ndisliked Wolfe fiction that\nmade you \"see the light\" and revise your dislike of\nit? More than once?\nWhat were the fictions, what were the revelations,\nto what degree did it\nchange your dislike (how many levels did it rise\nup--did you actually come\nto like it?), and how long ago was it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That as _Urth_ for me. I was annoyed and confused when\nI first read it. It just seemed to be a bunch more\nstuff tacked onto the end of TBOTLS. After reading\nthis list for awhile, and then re-reading TBOTLS and\nUrth, I'm stunned and embarrassed that I missed so\nmuch.\n\nHmm... add _Free_Live_Free_, which I still have\nreservations about, but appreciate a lot more after\nreading this list and then rereading.\n\nBoth of these revisions occured... oh jeez, could it\nhave been six years ago? Has this list really been\naround that long? Jumpin' Jiminy.\n\n-cephalothorax " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2002-06-11T02:25:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, an important point, which should not be glossed over, is\nSeverian's experience with Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. [Despite]\ncontrol techniques available to the rulers of Ascians, the human\nspirit, so to speak, perseveres. The Ascians are not utterly-lost" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak?\n\n| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-06-11T07:08:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/06/2002 03:25:28 David Duffy wrote:\nWell, an important point, which should not be glossed over, is\nSeverian's experience with Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. [Despite]\ncontrol techniques available to the rulers of Ascians, the human\nspirit, so to speak, perseveres. The Ascians are not utterly-lost" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't recall if it's been mulled over on list but that was certainly the\nvery first thought that came into my mind when encountering Loyal. This\nsubsequently informed my reading of all matters Ascian, particularly the\nnature of the war - that war, irrespective of outside influence, might be\na tool of internal policy rather than motivated by external aims. I see\nno textural support for such a thought and neither did it seem significant\nto any aspect of narative or plot so I set the thought aside as\ninconsequential except perhaps in a literary criticism way. 1984 was and\nremains an influential work, especially in those years leading up to that\ndate when there was almost a sort of millennarianism about. Recall that\nin the mid seventies the Soviet union showed no sign of the reformation\nwe've since experienced, there appeared to be no prospect of any end to\nthe cold war and 'godless communism' still seemed capable of gaining\nground. It's possible to see allegory here but not, I think, necessary.\nIt might have been quite plausible at the time to think such conflict\ninevitable and eternal short of divine intervention.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-06-11T07:45:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \nHas anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is obvious that it is derived from 1984 and Nuspeak. The idea that the\nAscian's war may be derived from the eternal war between\nOceana/Eastasia/Eurasia is a good one.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-03T04:34:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. Horn fleeing into Babbie. How'd I miss that? (In the books, understandable; but on the list, inexcusable.) Thanks Marc, that explains a lot and fits nicely. Not sure I follow on the trees, but since it sounds like you've already stated your opinions here several times, I won't ask. Maybe I'll get around to perusing the archives one day. \n\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-03T12:06:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Stephen Case wrote:\nWow. Horn fleeing into Babbie. How'd I miss that? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that interpretation has achieved consensus yet. I don't\nagree with it. I have a half-completed write-up of my interpretation of\nwhat happens to Horn that I hope to post someday soon!\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "PMorris33", "address": "pmorris33 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-07-07T04:15:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Love Jon Carroll. Please let us know what you learned from him. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-07-08T13:27:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't learn anything from him, though he may have learned something from me. We were discussing a writer, Dale Peck.\n Love Jon Carroll. Please let us know what you learned from him. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-11T04:55:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Silk wasn't trying to commit suicide over Hyacinth's casket, then what is the significance of Silk/Horn and Remora's conversation about death and suicide at the end of the series? I thought the reason that kept Silk retreated into the Horn persona through most of the books was that he couldn't face the fact of himself committing suicide. When he finally did, he emerged. Didn't the Neighbors say something when Horn was dying about \"transfering him into a healthy body who's soul was dying\" or words to that effect? I took this to mean that Silk's body was relatively healthy-- he hadn't gone far enough to truly be in danger of death-- but that his soul was dying, i.e. he had decided to end it all, made the decision to quit living, given up. If Wolfe is a Christian, than this is one of the greatest moral crimes a man can commit. If Silk is a servant of the Outsider, the same is true, and the fact that he committed it, fell so far, is why he stayed hidden in Horn for so long. I think the suicide theory explains things rather nicely. What holes do you guys see?\n\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-18T05:53:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just tell me one thing about the Silk suicide/nonsuicide question: If Silk wasn't killing himself over Hyacinth's coffin, what significance does the scene (and in my opinion one of the most dramatic of the entire series) in RTW with Remora and the wedding passage have? If Silk isn't killing himself, then it seems to loose all meaning. At least to me. \n\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-09-03T03:31:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "urth at urth.net wrote:\n\nSubject:\nRe: (urth) Newt's main referent\nFrom:\nMichael Straight \nDate:\nMon, 2 Sep 2002 01:16:54 -0400 (EDT)\nTo:\nurth at urth.net\n\n\nOn Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Alice K. Turner wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good call, Nick. Some major convention (WorldCon, I guess) was held in, I\nthink, Atlanta in the 80s and Newt, for reasons that I think had to do with\nBruce Sterling, was the banquet speaker.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, at the time, Newt was one of the most famous science-fiction writers\nin America (along with William Shatner and, arguably, Stephen King)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Newt Gingrich co-authored _1945_ with professional SF writer William \nForstchen. It was published late in 1995, but portions including a sex \nscene deleted from the final text were released during the 1994 election \nseason. The convention appearance in Atlanta was most likely Dragon*Con \n94 or 95." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Binah", "address": "binah at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-09-06T23:59:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest from urth@urth.net", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hope i posted this correctly-\nI think the 'chem\" reference is definitely derived from Alchemy- I came \nacross the word Azoth in Alchemy - The Art of Knowing, which was defined as:\"\nAzoth was the measureless spirit of life and came from the outer regions of \nthe universe to be poured into the four elements of earth, fire, air, and \nwater.\" The author attributes the origins of the word to \"early Egyptian \nwritings\" (somewhat vague, eh?) and I seem to remember coming across a \nreference to an Egyptian spiritual entity named Typhon (I can't remember \nwhere the reference was though). I believe that Wolfe must have at least a \nfairly deep understanding of the history of alchemy to employ these fairly \nobscure names and terms.\nA. Adair" } ] } ] }