Subject: (urth) Re: Digest from [email-masked]

From: Pat O'Leary <poleary at cecom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:26:22 +0000

Good job man!

One problem: I seem to be getting the list twice each time.
One from urth...and one from Ranjit...

Can you fix that?

best

Patrick O'leary

Questions or problems: write ranjit at urth.net

---

From: John Bishop <jbishop at zko.dec.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:20:51 +0000

I have a problem with the digest format.

It comes to me as a series of attached files,
one per message, each of which I have to expand
if I wish to read it, schematically:

     [Part 1.1]
     [Part 1.2]
         :
     [Part 1.N]

The old digest used to come as one long file,
with messages in plain text, one after another,
schematically:

 msg one body, blah blah...
 msg two body, so and so, such and such...
   :
 msg N body, details and arguments...

I _much_ prefer the old system.  Can the new
one be changed?

	-John Bishop

---

From: Ashley Crill <ashley.crill at student.oc.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:59:37 +0000

when I try to open the message, it doesn't work

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: urth at urth.net 
	Sent: Wed 1/30/2002 11:01 PM 
	To: Digest_Members 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Digest from urth at urth.net

---

From: Lee Grupsmith <lgrupsmith at earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:53:30 +0000

Is there any way to format the Digest so I can see all the messages at once?
What I'm getting is a series of attachments that each need to be opened
separately...

--

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From: David Duffy <davidd at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 05:44:23 +0000

Apropos Aegypt-iv
> ..be next year; it's going to
> be much shorter than the previous ones. Maybe 2004. I know Crowley wants to
> wind up the series, and who can blame him.
> -a-

At the Xmas party, Pierce meets a strange man who seems upset with the
way things are going in _Daemonomania_.

| David Duffy.                                                     ,-_|\
| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101    /     *
| Epidemiology Unit, The Queensland Institute of Medical Research \_,-._/
| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia                 v

--

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:27:47 +0000

> Hyacinth, or whatever s/he represents, blooms as a 
> flower.  Perhaps these recombinations offer some hope for destitute
humanity, 
> crushed under the tyranny of wicked men.  It seems to me that the passage 
> aptly states that a definite hope for a return from doom lies in the 
> transformation to ever-blooming flora.   

Ahem.

Not to be always harping on the obvious... but...

Wolfe, as a committed Christian, certainly believes that the only real 
hope for the human race lies in a hybrid (of God and Man) and in a very 
real transformation of humanity - both the individual human person and
the whole human race. The Catholic Church would, I believe, add that 
this transformation (into an eternal and "glorified" form - thus "ever-
blooming" indeed) can come about only through the 'ingestion' of the 
body of the hybrid, which changes us to be "more conformed" to the 
"image" of the hybrid. And, as with Hyacinth, the true salvation or
transformation comes (can come) only after the death of this physical 
self.

Flowers in general, and roses in particular, are also a common figure
for Christ (the word "ever-blooming" reminds me in particular of the 
old Christmas song "Lo! How a rose ever-blooming":

Lo, how a rose e'er blooming
>From tender stem hath sprung!
Of Jesse's lineage coming
As men of old have sung
It came, a floweret bright
Amid the cold of winter
When half spent was the night 

Isaiah 'twas foretold it
The rose I have in mind
With Mary we behold it
The Virgin Mother kind
To show God's love aright
She bore to men a Saviour
When half spent was the night 

O Saviour, Child of Mary
Who felt our human woe
O Saviour, King of glory
Who dost our weakness know
Bring us at length, we pray
To the bright courts of heaven
And to the endless day 
)

Happy Thursday.

--

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From: Jonathan Laidlow <ultan01 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:03:43 +0000

Just a note to say that Peter Wright has written a
piece on 5th Head for the Ultan's Library e-journal
which we posted before Xmas. We will shortly be
posting infamous 5th Head afficionado Robert Borski's
response to the piece, just as soon as we can get it
edited.

url: http://www.ultan.co.uk

- Jonathan Laidlow

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

--

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 02:36:34 +0000

>url: http://www.ultan.co.uk

FWIW I read the essay and enjoyed it. It is mainly about things and issues
surrounding Colonizer/Colonized, a reading of 5HC that addresses
Colonialism. It starts off with a survey of what has been written over the
years on this aspect of 5HC.  Using this to set the context, Wright then
goes further than any have dared before.

Go read it now.

=mantis=

SIRIUS FICTION
booklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley
57 Lexicons left until OP!
http://www.siriusfiction.com/

--

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:33:39 +0000

Hartshorn wrote:

> Has anyone given any seriouss thought to the treatment of race 
> in Wolfe?

Yes.

There is an interesting comment, and I cannot for the life of me remember
whether it is somewhere in tBotNS or, perhaps, Castle of the Otter - but
Wolfe-or-his-narrator comments that each of the continents of [Earth|Urth]
has a racial "type" which is proper to it, and that whoever colonizes that 
continent winds up conforming to that type in about two thousand years. 

Sort of post-adaptationism?

I'll try to look for that quote when I do my big reread of the Sun books
later this year...

--D

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:05:01 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <ddanehy at siebel.com>

> continent winds up conforming to that type in about two thousand years.

It is on BONS somewhere.  I always wondered at that.  How come the
inhabitants of this future South America are (mostly) European and white,
even blond?

    hartshorn

--

---

From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:36:45 +0000

>inhabitants of this future South America are (mostly) European and white,

Um, because they are descendents of invaders who arrived less than the
magic mutational number of chiliads ago? (My recollection was that in
Severian's musing it was 10 or more chiliads.)  Just like South America
today?

Like that old joke: "What do you call a group of people who have lived in
the arctic circle for ten thousand years?"

Answer: "Blond."

=mantis=

--

---

From: David Duffy <davidd at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:15:58 +0000

>From urth at urth.net Fri Feb 15 17:09:21 2002
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:04:25 +1000 (EST)
From: urth at urth.net
To: Digest_Members at mailhub1.uq.edu.au
Subject: Digest from  urth at urth.net

Jason Ingram <j_ingram at mac.com> wrote

>Alga,
>
>Those titles sound interesting.  I've been researching related topics
>(which are more pertinent to John Crowley, but still relevant to
>Wolfe), and fictional accounts should help to sustain interest.
>
>> Thank you for this--it is particularly interesting to me as I have just
>> finished reading THE ABYSS, by Margaret Yourcenar, an account of a
>>
>> recently read THE CHYMICAL WEDDING, by Lindsay Clarke. which is very

The latter is pretty good, his other books have similar themes I think.

Patrick White's _The Solid Mandala_ and possibly _Riders in the Chariot_
have quite well hidden kabbalistic themes IIRC; a quick web search only
brings up a discussion of Boehmian theology and _Voss_ -- he is a Nobel
laureate and so *high lit*, you know ;)

| David Duffy.                                                     ,-_|\

--

---

From: Seth Lombardi <sethlombardi at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:01:52 +0000

Rostrum Said:
>Silk's body may not used to eating much. Remember in _Nightside_ where 
>couple fried tomatoes, and apple, and a crust of bread are a mouth-watering 
>feast? That was when he was a poor priest, but it's possible he continued 
>to eat lightly and fast regularly even when he >was Calde and later when he 
>lived with Hyacinth. Eat that way for >years and then suddenly start trying 
>to eat like Horn was accustomed, >and you'll get pretty sick.
I don't have the text in front of me, but I seem to remember in one of the 
twin's accounts of the whole boat/astral travel section at the end of RTW, 
"Father" raising a container of wine to his lips. This results in a 
narrative comment from the twin that "Father" often seemed to only PRETENDED 
to eat or drink.
Which suggests something more sinister is going on. Not that I know what it 
is, other than extremely infuriating and disturbing! :P
*****************************
Seth Lombardi
sethlombardi at hotmail.com
http://pages.prodigy.net/nlom/blogg.html
AIM: melombardi
"Two faces are alike; neither is funny by itself, but side by side their 
likeness makes us laugh" -Pascal

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:06:50 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Lombardi" <sethlombardi at hotmail.com>
> is, other than extremely infuriating and disturbing! :P

It has long been speculated that Silk/Horn is an inhumi, or perhaps that the
"spirit" that inhabits him was not that of Horn, but that of an inhumi who
drained Horn on Green and became compleetly convinced that he was human, was
Horn.

    hartshorn

--

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:21:23 +0000

> Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to avoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to avoid further torment by
> the in-dwelling demon summoned by the device. 

	I think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device that
literally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather
than literal angels), I think that the Rev is meant to be an
electroshock device of fiendish refinement that divides the brain by
damaging tissue electrically and leaves the non-speaking part greatly
resentful of the trauma and perhaps envious of the speaking part. 
	This would agree somewhat with studies of people who have had their
brains divided by damage or surgical severing of the corpus callosum,
which GW already used in "The Death of Doctor Island." This would
explain the image of the demon as having Thecla's face, since it is part
of herself. 
	The division of functions is not the same as that in the RL documented
procedure, but this can be attributed to the refinement of the device by
Urthly science, the general scientific accuracy of the Book, and perhaps
an effort on Wolfe's part to display an internal division within human
nature. The Revolutionary turns one against one's self by separating the
devil already inside from the mitigating moral conscience, or perhaps it
involves original sin.

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

--

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:42:59 +0000

> devil already inside from the mitigating moral conscience, or perhaps it

I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes, but it's not clear whether
Thecla kills herself of her own volition to avoid further torment, or if
by taking the knife she is allowing the "demon" self to kill her quickly
rather than fight a slow, losing battle against it.

(Like the difference between shooting myself to avoid being tortured by an
enemy and handing the gun to my enemy and hoping to be shot rather than
tortured to death.)

-Rostrum

--

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From: Stephen Case <scase at olivet.edu>
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:27:10 +0000

"I've been corresponding with Gene Wolfe for a few weeks now, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he has time to answer letters from fans."

How would one get in contact with Gene Wolfe?  I wrote him a letter a while back and never got a reply.  Does he have an email address?

-Steve

--

---

From: Spectacled Bear <spectacled.bear at pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:06:34 +0000

>How would one get in contact with Gene Wolfe?  I wrote him a letter a while back and never got a reply.  Does he have an email address?

This is probably obvious to most people, but it's worth saying anyway:
anyone who has that email address must NEVER EVER mention it on the list,
because it will be "harvested" and spammed to hell and back.

An unusually fierce

Spectacled Bear.

P.S. Also obvious, but worth saying for courtesy's sake, is that this
warning isn't directed at Stephen, Christopher, or any other individual.
It's entirely pre-emptive.

--

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 05:29:59 +0000

> Subject: Re: (urth) Mr Million v Oreb
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:49:07 +0100
> From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
> Reply-To: urth at urth.net
> To: <urth at urth.net>
> 
> From: "Jeff Wilson" <jwilson at io.com>
> >
> >>There are numerous documented cases of microcephalics with normal mental
> >>functionality; a lot of the human brain is redundant, something that is
> >>mentioned as a performance boosting factor in "5HC".
> 
> I am begnning to have serious doubts about the "numerous microcephalics"
> being true, and I'd appreciate a link to a primary source (not a dodgy
> populist like Sagan).   I have chased these rumors up before and they seem
> to come to nothing, or to ignore the fact that the "normal" person in fact
> has serious behavioral deficiencies, though they may score averaage on an IQ
> test.   But I bow to correction on this point.

Sure, the microcephalics may have problems, but then so does Oreb; he
can't put more than two syllables together.
 
> I agree that a human brain can work at half human size.  After all, children
> manage!   But not at 1/10 or 1/40 human size.

Being a populist doesn't mean your figures are to be dismissed out of
hand; for instance, Guinness. In fact, let's look at Guinness: the
photograph of the tiniest woman shows almost normal proportions on a
woman who's what, 29" tall? 

> >. However, almost 10 years ago,
> > Pentium processors with 3.3 million transistors were running at 100
> > megahertz, for 3.3 x 10^14 switching events a second, and just consuming
> > a few watts.
> >
> > Ray Kurzweil writes on this sort of comparison extensively; at current
> > rate of development, computers will approach the complexity of the human
> > brain in terms of informational and interconnected capacity in about 30
> > years.
> 
> Thanks for the correction.   But the "30 years to equality" figure is one I
> have heard before. Indeed I was hearing it 30 years ago, and  I suspect we
> will be hearing it 30 years from now.

You must be thinking of something else, like "Fusion in 10 years."
Kurzweil's prediction is based on Moore's Law vs. the physical biology
of the brain; neither has been dramatically revised in decades. 

--

---

From: Tony Ellis <littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:09:02 +0000

Jeff Wilson wrote:
>How do you explain the remarkable similarity of form and the ability
>to interbreed, then?

Remarkable similarity of form to, and ability to interbreed with, human
beings, you mean? The explanation is that abos -are- human beings. They are
the descendants of prehistoric colonists from Earth. Wolfe goes out of his
way to prime us with this idea in all three novellas in 5HC, and that's good
enough for me.

--

---

From: David Duffy <davidd at orpheus.qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:07:10 +0000

Having reread 5HC after reading all your insightful comments:

VRT's father is deft enough to have made the arrowheads [viz Peace BTW],
but says his son could not have knapped them.  That would be congruent
with the interpretation that only Victor's mother is full-blood.  

I think that the reading that Marsch killed Victor in a fit of jealousy
and took over his identity through guilt is perfectly consistent with
every detail folks have brought up.  Then, the "story" is a simple ;)
psychodrama and the details such as Poictesme, Lemuria et are whimsies
on his part. This also makes sense thematically if all the abo's have
been exterminated in the same way, so that ideas such as that of Veil
are again reflections of guilt rather than reality.  Also, Marsch in his
discussions with Jeanine may have heard of No. 5's suggestions about
Lemuria.  This reading can be seen to be David's side of the debate.

The inability to understand the knockings from the next cell, when he
has no trouble with the civilised coded taps of the other prisoners
might be indirect commentary on this.

WRT Lemuria etc, I might bring in Morgana le Fay here, who also gives
these as cover stories in _Castleview_, where I think we are not
intended to take them seriously. Supernatural beings love these kinds of
stories as much as anyone else.

Apropos of nothing, Marsch's embroideries in the his other writings (he
says he has put in traps for his jailors), notably the 1-1/2 mile long
military spacecraft he sees in the company of VRT and his father.

Apropos of robots, the relationship No. 5 has with his captors is very
much in keeping with the idea (which I think of as Lem-ian) that true
artificial intelligences will be just as prone to curiosity about their
own origins and limits, charitableness, madness, laziness, cheating, and
vice as we natural intelligences. I think Wolfe is quite happy with the
idea of free will being circumscribed by properties of the body and
brain in which the spirit is ensconced, as well as external events: this
makes me think of djinns who may be forced into actions against their
will by sorcery or foolish but completely binding promise, but who can
still choose to be good Muslims.  

David.

| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)                                         ,-_|\
| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101  /     *
| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research   \_,-._/
| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia  GPG 4D0B994A v 

--

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:41:11 +0000

--- David Duffy <davidD at orpheus.qimr.edu.au> wrote:
> on his part.
...

Very tempting--sort of "Fondly Fahrenheit"-ish--but I think you have
to assume that afterwards Marsch revised his journals, at least to say
that Victor has unusual green eyes, which Number Five tells us that
John V. Marsch has too.  Of course, Marsch could conceivably have made
that revision, even in his former handwriting.  Then the officer who
reads the journals could fail to notice that that part of the sentence
had been added in the margin or whatever, or the italicized narration
could fail to mention that he noticed.  Hardly seems fair on Wolfe's
part, though.  I think there are some other correspondences between
Marsch's descriptions of Victor and our later knowledge of John V.
Marsch, but I can't remember any.

Jerry Friedman

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--

---

From: David Duffy <davidd at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 00:49:10 +0000

>              The point of the pure "story suite" is that the stories
> actually comment on and, in a sense, revise each other -- that the whole
> is not only greater than the sum of the parts, but _different_ from the
> sum of the parts; the parts heterodyne or synergize or whatever this
> year's term is for things working together to produce effects not clearly
> obvious from the two separately.

> The mosaic (as I am understanding the term) is somewhere in between --
> the stories are more separate, like the stories of a "series," but work
> --Blattid

These are all shadings that merely reflect the sophistication of the
writer and timing of how the stories were written.  Take _The Sound and
the Fury_: if the different parts had been written and published
separately, would it stop being a novel?  Alan Garner's _The Stone Book
Quartet_ (recently read) is four stories written one and two years apart
each covering one generation in the life of a family -- each episode
comments on earlier action and reveals motivationsi, and I can see it
just as easily as a novel.  Stories told by multiple tellers from the
same tradition, or a single author trying to imitate such a tradition,
can be contradictory and mutually informative (the four gospels).

--

---

From: David Duffy <davidd at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 03:26:55 +0000

alga said:
> ... There are devils and angels in this book. (I prefer to call
> them demons and cherubim, but I'm not getting much of a response.) There is
> The interesting point, to me, is whether the inhumi can really be considered
> "evil." In a debate, I'd enjoy taking the side that they are not. And that
> Wolfe shows the humans, who do not have their needs and nature, as more
> evil.

and Rostrum said:
> On the other hand, I think its implied that the inhumi are as much persons
> as chems.  Their souls may be derivative, but they are real, and they seem
> to be capable of making real choices to do good or evil.  I think their
> nature makes it very difficult to do good, but not impossible.

We were told that the Neighbours carried inhumi to the Whorl,
possibly deliberately, which doesn't seem like a very angelic thing to
do ;). Perhaps Quetzal is what a Neighbourly inhuma is like.

Wolfe definitely is of the genre, and presumably has read some of the
sympathetic SFnal treatments of vampires eg Sime-Gen, Octavia Butler,
Martin.  I do see the settlement of the US say Comanches (or other
groups with a bloodthirsty reputation) v. settlers as a model.  Turning
to the early Christian church as another model, one might well expect
"the conversion of the inhumi" to take several generations (so they are
not irredeemably evil ;)).

David Duffy.

--

---

From: PMorris33 <pmorris33 at aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 08:08:57 +0000

I, too have had some difficulty and disappointment with TBOSS.  Same feeling 
as when I finished the Gregory Benford "Ocean, River, Sea" series and David 
Brin's last Uplift series.   Too metaphysical, too diffuse, too vague.  The 
narrative drive seems exhausted and the author gets really wooly.  

Maybe, I just don't like endings  

Pip

--

---

From: Joel Priddy <mossmail at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 12:32:18 +0000

> My question to William and anyone else who cares to
> answer is this: Have
> you ever received a revelatory message about a
> disliked Wolfe fiction that
> made you "see the light" and revise your dislike of
> it?  More than once?
> What were the fictions, what were the revelations,
> to what degree did it
> change your dislike (how many levels did it rise
> up--did you actually come
> to like it?), and how long ago was it?

That as _Urth_ for me. I was annoyed and confused when
I first read it. It just seemed to be a bunch more
stuff tacked onto the end of TBOTLS. After reading
this list for awhile, and then re-reading TBOTLS and
Urth, I'm stunned and embarrassed that I missed so
much.

Hmm... add _Free_Live_Free_, which I still have
reservations about, but appreciate a lot more after
reading this list and then rereading.

Both of these revisions occured... oh jeez, could it
have been six years ago? Has this list really been
around that long? Jumpin' Jiminy.

-cephalothorax 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

--

---

From: David Duffy <davidd at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 02:25:28 +0000

> Well, an important point, which should not be glossed over, is
> Severian's experience with Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. [Despite]
> control techniques available to the rulers of Ascians, the human
> spirit, so to speak, perseveres. The Ascians are not utterly-lost

Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak?

--

---

From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:08:21 +0000

>Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak?

I can't recall if it's been mulled over on list but that was certainly the
very first thought that came into my mind when encountering Loyal.  This
subsequently informed my reading of all matters Ascian, particularly the
nature of the war - that war, irrespective of outside influence, might be
a tool of internal policy rather than motivated by external aims.  I see
no textural support for such a thought and neither did it seem significant
to any aspect of narative or plot so I set the thought aside as
inconsequential except perhaps in a literary criticism way.  1984 was and
remains an influential work, especially in those years leading up to that
date when there was almost a sort of millennarianism about.  Recall that
in the mid seventies the Soviet union showed no sign of the reformation
we've since experienced, there appeared to be no prospect of any end to
the cold war and 'godless communism' still seemed capable of gaining
ground.  It's possible to see allegory here but not, I think, necessary.
It might have been quite plausible at the time to think such conflict
inevitable and eternal short of divine intervention.

Matthew

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:45:29 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>

> >Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak?

It is obvious that it is derived from 1984 and Nuspeak.   The idea that the
Ascian's war may be derived from the eternal war between
Oceana/Eastasia/Eurasia is a good one.

    hartshorn

--

---

From: Stephen Case <scase at olivet.edu>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:34:15 +0000

Wow.  Horn fleeing into Babbie.  How'd I miss that? (In the books, understandable; but on the list, inexcusable.)  Thanks Marc, that explains a lot and fits nicely.  Not sure I follow on the trees, but since it sounds like you've already stated your opinions here several times, I won't ask.  Maybe I'll get around to perusing the archives one day.  

-Steve

--

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:06:55 +0000

On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Stephen Case wrote:

> Wow.  Horn fleeing into Babbie.  How'd I miss that? 

I don't think that interpretation has achieved consensus yet.  I don't
agree with it.  I have a half-completed write-up of my interpretation of
what happens to Horn that I hope to post someday soon!

-Rostrum

--

---

From: PMorris33 <pmorris33 at aol.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 04:15:55 +0000

Love Jon Carroll.  Please let us know what you learned from him.  

--

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 13:27:53 +0000

I didn't learn anything from him, though he may have learned something from me. We were discussing a writer, Dale Peck.
  Love Jon Carroll.  Please let us know what you learned from him.  

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From: Stephen Case <scase at olivet.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 04:55:20 +0000

If Silk wasn't trying to commit suicide over Hyacinth's casket, then what is the significance of Silk/Horn and Remora's conversation about death and suicide at the end of the series?  I thought the reason that kept Silk retreated into the Horn persona through most of the books was that he couldn't face the fact of himself committing suicide.  When he finally did, he emerged.  Didn't the Neighbors say something when Horn was dying about "transfering him into a healthy body who's soul was dying" or words to that effect?  I took this to mean that Silk's body was relatively healthy-- he hadn't gone far enough to truly be in danger of death-- but that his soul was dying, i.e. he had decided to end it all, made the decision to quit living, given up.  If Wolfe is a Christian, than this is one of the greatest moral crimes a man can commit.  If Silk is a servant of the Outsider, the same is true, and the fact that he committed it, fell so far, is why he stayed hidden in Horn for so long.  I think the suicide theory explains things rather nicely.  What holes do you guys see?

-Steve

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From: Stephen Case <scase at olivet.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:53:04 +0000

Just tell me one thing about the Silk suicide/nonsuicide question: If Silk wasn't killing himself over Hyacinth's coffin, what significance does the scene (and in my opinion one of the most dramatic of the entire series) in RTW with Remora and the wedding passage have?  If Silk isn't killing himself, then it seems to loose all meaning.  At least to me.  

-Steve

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 03:31:52 +0000

urth at urth.net wrote:

>
> Subject:
> Re: (urth) Newt's main referent
> From:
> Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
> Date:
> Mon, 2 Sep 2002 01:16:54 -0400 (EDT)
> To:
> urth at urth.net
>
>
>On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Alice K. Turner wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Good call, Nick. Some major convention (WorldCon, I guess) was held in, I
>>think, Atlanta in the 80s and Newt, for reasons that I think had to do with
>>Bruce Sterling, was the banquet speaker.
>>    
>>
>
>Also, at the time, Newt was one of the most famous science-fiction writers
>in America (along with William Shatner and, arguably, Stephen King).
>

Newt Gingrich co-authored _1945_ with professional SF writer William 
Forstchen. It was published late in 1995, but portions including a sex 
scene deleted from the final text were released during the 1994 election 
season.  The convention appearance in Atlanta was most likely Dragon*Con 
94 or 95.

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From: Binah <binah at aol.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:59:28 +0000

hope i posted this correctly-
I think the 'chem" reference is definitely derived from Alchemy- I came 
across the word Azoth in Alchemy - The Art of Knowing, which was defined as:"
Azoth was the measureless spirit of life and came from the outer regions of 
the universe to be poured into the four elements of earth, fire, air, and 
water." The author attributes the origins of the word to "early Egyptian 
writings" (somewhat vague, eh?) and I seem to remember coming across a 
reference to an Egyptian spiritual entity named Typhon (I can't remember 
where the reference was though). I believe that Wolfe must have at least a 
fairly deep understanding of the history of alchemy to employ these fairly 
obscure names and terms.
A. Adair

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