# Digest from urth@urth.net *The Urth list — 37 messages, 22 voices, 29 Jan 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Pat O'Leary *29 Jan 2002, 14:26* Good job man! One problem: I seem to be getting the list twice each time. One from urth...and one from Ranjit... Can you fix that? best Patrick O'leary Questions or problems: write ranjit at urth.net --- ### John Bishop *30 Jan 2002, 22:20 · follows Pat O'Leary* I have a problem with the digest format. It comes to me as a series of attached files, one per message, each of which I have to expand if I wish to read it, schematically: [Part 1.1] [Part 1.2] : [Part 1.N] The old digest used to come as one long file, with messages in plain text, one after another, schematically: msg one body, blah blah... msg two body, so and so, such and such... : msg N body, details and arguments... I _much_ prefer the old system. Can the new one be changed? -John Bishop Questions or problems: write ranjit at urth.net --- ### Ashley Crill *31 Jan 2002, 08:59 · follows John Bishop* when I try to open the message, it doesn't work -----Original Message----- From: urth at urth.net Sent: Wed 1/30/2002 11:01 PM To: Digest_Members Cc: Subject: Digest from urth at urth.net --- ### Lee Grupsmith *31 Jan 2002, 16:53 · follows Ashley Crill* Is there any way to format the Digest so I can see all the messages at once? What I'm getting is a series of attachments that each need to be opened separately... --- ### David Duffy *01 Feb 2002, 05:44 · follows Lee Grupsmith* Apropos Aegypt-iv > ..be next year; it's going to > be much shorter than the previous ones. Maybe 2004. I know Crowley wants to > wind up the series, and who can blame him. > -a- At the Xmas party, Pierce meets a strange man who seems upset with the way things are going in _Daemonomania_. | David Duffy. ,-_|\ | email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, The Queensland Institute of Medical Research \_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia v --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *07 Feb 2002, 16:27 · follows David Duffy* > Hyacinth, or whatever s/he represents, blooms as a > flower. Perhaps these recombinations offer some hope for destitute > humanity, > crushed under the tyranny of wicked men. It seems to me that the passage > aptly states that a definite hope for a return from doom lies in the > transformation to ever-blooming flora. Ahem. Not to be always harping on the obvious... but... Wolfe, as a committed Christian, certainly believes that the only real hope for the human race lies in a hybrid (of God and Man) and in a very real transformation of humanity - both the individual human person and the whole human race. The Catholic Church would, I believe, add that this transformation (into an eternal and "glorified" form - thus "ever- blooming" indeed) can come about only through the 'ingestion' of the body of the hybrid, which changes us to be "more conformed" to the "image" of the hybrid. And, as with Hyacinth, the true salvation or transformation comes (can come) only after the death of this physical self. Flowers in general, and roses in particular, are also a common figure for Christ (the word "ever-blooming" reminds me in particular of the old Christmas song "Lo! How a rose ever-blooming": Lo, how a rose e'er blooming From tender stem hath sprung! Of Jesse's lineage coming As men of old have sung It came, a floweret bright Amid the cold of winter When half spent was the night Isaiah 'twas foretold it The rose I have in mind With Mary we behold it The Virgin Mother kind To show God's love aright She bore to men a Saviour When half spent was the night O Saviour, Child of Mary Who felt our human woe O Saviour, King of glory Who dost our weakness know Bring us at length, we pray To the bright courts of heaven And to the endless day ) Happy Thursday. --- ### Jonathan Laidlow *08 Feb 2002, 09:03 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Just a note to say that Peter Wright has written a piece on 5th Head for the Ultan's Library e-journal which we posted before Xmas. We will shortly be posting infamous 5th Head afficionado Robert Borski's response to the piece, just as soon as we can get it edited. url: http://www.ultan.co.uk - Jonathan Laidlow --- ### Michael Andre-Driussi *09 Feb 2002, 02:36 · follows Jonathan Laidlow* > Jonathan Laidlow wrote: > Just a note to say that Peter Wright has written a > piece on 5th Head for the Ultan's Library e-journal > which we posted before Xmas. We will shortly be > posting infamous 5th Head afficionado Robert Borski's > response to the piece, just as soon as we can get it > edited. > > url: http://www.ultan.co.uk FWIW I read the essay and enjoyed it. It is mainly about things and issues surrounding Colonizer/Colonized, a reading of 5HC that addresses Colonialism. It starts off with a survey of what has been written over the years on this aspect of 5HC. Using this to set the context, Wright then goes further than any have dared before. Go read it now. =mantis= SIRIUS FICTION booklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley 57 Lexicons left until OP! http://www.siriusfiction.com/ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *11 Feb 2002, 19:33 · follows Michael Andre-Driussi* > Hartshorn wrote: > Has anyone given any seriouss thought to the treatment of race > in Wolfe? Yes. There is an interesting comment, and I cannot for the life of me remember whether it is somewhere in tBotNS or, perhaps, Castle of the Otter - but Wolfe-or-his-narrator comments that each of the continents of [Earth|Urth] has a racial "type" which is proper to it, and that whoever colonizes that continent winds up conforming to that type in about two thousand years. Sort of post-adaptationism? I'll try to look for that quote when I do my big reread of the Sun books later this year... --D --- ### Andy Robertson *12 Feb 2002, 09:05 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" > There is an interesting comment, and I cannot for the life of me remember > whether it is somewhere in tBotNS or, perhaps, Castle of the Otter - but > Wolfe-or-his-narrator comments that each of the continents of [Earth|Urth] > has a racial "type" which is proper to it, and that whoever colonizes that > continent winds up conforming to that type in about two thousand years. It is on BONS somewhere. I always wondered at that. How come the inhabitants of this future South America are (mostly) European and white, even blond? hartshorn --- ### Michael Andre-Driussi *12 Feb 2002, 14:36 · follows Andy Robertson* > Hartshorn wrote: > It is on BONS somewhere. I always wondered at that. How come the > inhabitants of this future South America are (mostly) European and white, > even blond? Um, because they are descendents of invaders who arrived less than the magic mutational number of chiliads ago? (My recollection was that in Severian's musing it was 10 or more chiliads.) Just like South America today? Like that old joke: "What do you call a group of people who have lived in the arctic circle for ten thousand years?" Answer: "Blond." =mantis= --- ### David Duffy *15 Feb 2002, 07:15 · follows Michael Andre-Driussi* From urth at urth.net Fri Feb 15 17:09:21 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:04:25 +1000 (EST) From: urth at urth.net To: Digest_Members at mailhub1.uq.edu.au Subject: Digest from urth at urth.net Jason Ingram wrote > Alga, > > Those titles sound interesting. I've been researching related topics > (which are more pertinent to John Crowley, but still relevant to > Wolfe), and fictional accounts should help to sustain interest. >> Thank you for this--it is particularly interesting to me as I have just >> finished reading THE ABYSS, by Margaret Yourcenar, an account of a >> >> recently read THE CHYMICAL WEDDING, by Lindsay Clarke. which is very The latter is pretty good, his other books have similar themes I think. Patrick White's _The Solid Mandala_ and possibly _Riders in the Chariot_ have quite well hidden kabbalistic themes IIRC; a quick web search only brings up a discussion of Boehmian theology and _Voss_ -- he is a Nobel laureate and so *high lit*, you know ;) | David Duffy. ,-_|\ | email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, The Queensland Institute of Medical Research \_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia v --- ### Seth Lombardi *15 Feb 2002, 22:01 · follows David Duffy* Rostrum Said: > Silk's body may not used to eating much. Remember in _Nightside_ where > couple fried tomatoes, and apple, and a crust of bread are a mouth-watering > feast? That was when he was a poor priest, but it's possible he continued > to eat lightly and fast regularly even when he >was Calde and later when he > lived with Hyacinth. Eat that way for >years and then suddenly start trying > to eat like Horn was accustomed, >and you'll get pretty sick. I don't have the text in front of me, but I seem to remember in one of the twin's accounts of the whole boat/astral travel section at the end of RTW, "Father" raising a container of wine to his lips. This results in a narrative comment from the twin that "Father" often seemed to only PRETENDED to eat or drink. Which suggests something more sinister is going on. Not that I know what it is, other than extremely infuriating and disturbing! :P ***************************** Seth Lombardi sethlombardi at hotmail.com http://pages.prodigy.net/nlom/blogg.html AIM: melombardi "Two faces are alike; neither is funny by itself, but side by side their likeness makes us laugh" -Pascal --- ### Andy Robertson *18 Feb 2002, 01:06 · follows Seth Lombardi* ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Seth Lombardi" > "Father" raising a container of wine to his lips. This results in a > narrative comment from the twin that "Father" often seemed to only > PRETENDED > to eat or drink. > Which suggests something more sinister is going on. Not that I know what > it > is, other than extremely infuriating and disturbing! :P It has long been speculated that Silk/Horn is an inhumi, or perhaps that the "spirit" that inhabits him was not that of Horn, but that of an inhumi who drained Horn on Green and became compleetly convinced that he was human, was Horn. hartshorn --- ### Jeff Wilson *05 Mar 2002, 15:21 · follows Andy Robertson* > Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to avoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to avoid further torment by > the in-dwelling demon summoned by the device. I think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device that literally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather than literal angels), I think that the Rev is meant to be an electroshock device of fiendish refinement that divides the brain by damaging tissue electrically and leaves the non-speaking part greatly resentful of the trauma and perhaps envious of the speaking part. This would agree somewhat with studies of people who have had their brains divided by damage or surgical severing of the corpus callosum, which GW already used in "The Death of Doctor Island." This would explain the image of the demon as having Thecla's face, since it is part of herself. The division of functions is not the same as that in the RL documented procedure, but this can be attributed to the refinement of the device by Urthly science, the general scientific accuracy of the Book, and perhaps an effort on Wolfe's part to display an internal division within human nature. The Revolutionary turns one against one's self by separating the devil already inside from the mitigating moral conscience, or perhaps it involves original sin. ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law -- ``` --- ### Michael Straight *05 Mar 2002, 15:42 · follows Jeff Wilson* >> On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Jeff Wilson wrote: >> Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to avoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to avoid further torment by >> the in-dwelling demon summoned by the device. > The division of functions is not the same as that in the RL documented > procedure, but this can be attributed to the refinement of the device by > Urthly science, the general scientific accuracy of the Book, and perhaps > an effort on Wolfe's part to display an internal division within human > nature. The Revolutionary turns one against one's self by separating the > devil already inside from the mitigating moral conscience, or perhaps it > involves original sin. I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes, but it's not clear whether Thecla kills herself of her own volition to avoid further torment, or if by taking the knife she is allowing the "demon" self to kill her quickly rather than fight a slow, losing battle against it. (Like the difference between shooting myself to avoid being tortured by an enemy and handing the gun to my enemy and hoping to be shot rather than tortured to death.) -Rostrum --- ### Stephen Case *02 Apr 2002, 19:27 · follows Michael Straight* "I've been corresponding with Gene Wolfe for a few weeks now, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he has time to answer letters from fans." How would one get in contact with Gene Wolfe? I wrote him a letter a while back and never got a reply. Does he have an email address? -Steve --- ### Spectacled Bear *03 Apr 2002, 08:06 · follows Stephen Case* > At 20:27 2002-04-02, Stephen Case wrote: > "I've been corresponding with Gene Wolfe for a few weeks now, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he has time to answer letters from fans." > > How would one get in contact with Gene Wolfe? I wrote him a letter a while back and never got a reply. Does he have an email address? This is probably obvious to most people, but it's worth saying anyway: anyone who has that email address must NEVER EVER mention it on the list, because it will be "harvested" and spammed to hell and back. An unusually fierce Spectacled Bear. P.S. Also obvious, but worth saying for courtesy's sake, is that this warning isn't directed at Stephen, Christopher, or any other individual. It's entirely pre-emptive. --- ### Jeff Wilson *24 Apr 2002, 05:29 · follows Spectacled Bear* > Subject: Re: (urth) Mr Million v Oreb > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:49:07 +0100 > From: "Andy Robertson" > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > To: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Wilson" >>> There are numerous documented cases of microcephalics with normal mental >>> functionality; a lot of the human brain is redundant, something that is >>> mentioned as a performance boosting factor in "5HC". > I am begnning to have serious doubts about the "numerous microcephalics" > being true, and I'd appreciate a link to a primary source (not a dodgy > populist like Sagan). I have chased these rumors up before and they seem > to come to nothing, or to ignore the fact that the "normal" person in fact > has serious behavioral deficiencies, though they may score averaage on an IQ > test. But I bow to correction on this point. Sure, the microcephalics may have problems, but then so does Oreb; he can't put more than two syllables together. > I agree that a human brain can work at half human size. After all, children > manage! But not at 1/10 or 1/40 human size. Being a populist doesn't mean your figures are to be dismissed out of hand; for instance, Guinness. In fact, let's look at Guinness: the photograph of the tiniest woman shows almost normal proportions on a woman who's what, 29" tall? >> . However, almost 10 years ago, >> Pentium processors with 3.3 million transistors were running at 100 >> megahertz, for 3.3 x 10^14 switching events a second, and just consuming >> a few watts. >> >> Ray Kurzweil writes on this sort of comparison extensively; at current >> rate of development, computers will approach the complexity of the human >> brain in terms of informational and interconnected capacity in about 30 >> years. > Thanks for the correction. But the "30 years to equality" figure is one I > have heard before. Indeed I was hearing it 30 years ago, and I suspect we > will be hearing it 30 years from now. You must be thinking of something else, like "Fusion in 10 years." Kurzweil's prediction is based on Moore's Law vs. the physical biology of the brain; neither has been dramatically revised in decades. ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law -- ``` --- ### Tony Ellis *24 Apr 2002, 09:09 · follows Jeff Wilson* > Jeff Wilson wrote: > How do you explain the remarkable similarity of form and the ability > to interbreed, then? Remarkable similarity of form to, and ability to interbreed with, human beings, you mean? The explanation is that abos -are- human beings. They are the descendants of prehistoric colonists from Earth. Wolfe goes out of his way to prime us with this idea in all three novellas in 5HC, and that's good enough for me. --- ### David Duffy *30 Apr 2002, 06:07 · follows Tony Ellis* Having reread 5HC after reading all your insightful comments: VRT's father is deft enough to have made the arrowheads [viz Peace BTW], but says his son could not have knapped them. That would be congruent with the interpretation that only Victor's mother is full-blood. I think that the reading that Marsch killed Victor in a fit of jealousy and took over his identity through guilt is perfectly consistent with every detail folks have brought up. Then, the "story" is a simple ;) psychodrama and the details such as Poictesme, Lemuria et are whimsies on his part. This also makes sense thematically if all the abo's have been exterminated in the same way, so that ideas such as that of Veil are again reflections of guilt rather than reality. Also, Marsch in his discussions with Jeanine may have heard of No. 5's suggestions about Lemuria. This reading can be seen to be David's side of the debate. The inability to understand the knockings from the next cell, when he has no trouble with the civilised coded taps of the other prisoners might be indirect commentary on this. WRT Lemuria etc, I might bring in Morgana le Fay here, who also gives these as cover stories in _Castleview_, where I think we are not intended to take them seriously. Supernatural beings love these kinds of stories as much as anyone else. Apropos of nothing, Marsch's embroideries in the his other writings (he says he has put in traps for his jailors), notably the 1-1/2 mile long military spacecraft he sees in the company of VRT and his father. Apropos of robots, the relationship No. 5 has with his captors is very much in keeping with the idea (which I think of as Lem-ian) that true artificial intelligences will be just as prone to curiosity about their own origins and limits, charitableness, madness, laziness, cheating, and vice as we natural intelligences. I think Wolfe is quite happy with the idea of free will being circumscribed by properties of the body and brain in which the spirit is ensconced, as well as external events: this makes me think of djinns who may be forced into actions against their will by sorcery or foolish but completely binding promise, but who can still choose to be good Muslims. David. | David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\ | email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v --- ### Jerry Friedman *30 Apr 2002, 19:41 · follows David Duffy* > --- David Duffy wrote: > Having reread 5HC after reading all your insightful comments: > > VRT's father is deft enough to have made the arrowheads [viz Peace BTW], > but says his son could not have knapped them. That would be congruent > with the interpretation that only Victor's mother is full-blood. > > I think that the reading that Marsch killed Victor in a fit of jealousy > and took over his identity through guilt is perfectly consistent with > every detail folks have brought up. Then, the "story" is a simple ;) > psychodrama and the details such as Poictesme, Lemuria et are whimsies > on his part. ... Very tempting--sort of "Fondly Fahrenheit"-ish--but I think you have to assume that afterwards Marsch revised his journals, at least to say that Victor has unusual green eyes, which Number Five tells us that John V. Marsch has too. Of course, Marsch could conceivably have made that revision, even in his former handwriting. Then the officer who reads the journals could fail to notice that that part of the sentence had been added in the margin or whatever, or the italicized narration could fail to mention that he noticed. Hardly seems fair on Wolfe's part, though. I think there are some other correspondences between Marsch's descriptions of Victor and our later knowledge of John V. Marsch, but I can't remember any. Jerry Friedman --- ### David Duffy *20 May 2002, 00:49 · follows Jerry Friedman* > The point of the pure "story suite" is that the stories > actually comment on and, in a sense, revise each other -- that the whole > is not only greater than the sum of the parts, but _different_ from the > sum of the parts; the parts heterodyne or synergize or whatever this > year's term is for things working together to produce effects not clearly > obvious from the two separately. > The mosaic (as I am understanding the term) is somewhere in between -- > the stories are more separate, like the stories of a "series," but work > --Blattid These are all shadings that merely reflect the sophistication of the writer and timing of how the stories were written. Take _The Sound and the Fury_: if the different parts had been written and published separately, would it stop being a novel? Alan Garner's _The Stone Book Quartet_ (recently read) is four stories written one and two years apart each covering one generation in the life of a family -- each episode comments on earlier action and reveals motivationsi, and I can see it just as easily as a novel. Stories told by multiple tellers from the same tradition, or a single author trying to imitate such a tradition, can be contradictory and mutually informative (the four gospels). | David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\ | email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v --- ### David Duffy *24 May 2002, 03:26 · follows David Duffy* alga said: > ... There are devils and angels in this book. (I prefer to call > them demons and cherubim, but I'm not getting much of a response.) There is > The interesting point, to me, is whether the inhumi can really be considered > "evil." In a debate, I'd enjoy taking the side that they are not. And that > Wolfe shows the humans, who do not have their needs and nature, as more > evil. and Rostrum said: > On the other hand, I think its implied that the inhumi are as much persons > as chems. Their souls may be derivative, but they are real, and they seem > to be capable of making real choices to do good or evil. I think their > nature makes it very difficult to do good, but not impossible. We were told that the Neighbours carried inhumi to the Whorl, possibly deliberately, which doesn't seem like a very angelic thing to do ;). Perhaps Quetzal is what a Neighbourly inhuma is like. Wolfe definitely is of the genre, and presumably has read some of the sympathetic SFnal treatments of vampires eg Sime-Gen, Octavia Butler, Martin. I do see the settlement of the US say Comanches (or other groups with a bloodthirsty reputation) v. settlers as a model. Turning to the early Christian church as another model, one might well expect "the conversion of the inhumi" to take several generations (so they are not irredeemably evil ;)). David Duffy. --- ### PMorris33 *26 May 2002, 08:08 · follows David Duffy* I, too have had some difficulty and disappointment with TBOSS. Same feeling as when I finished the Gregory Benford "Ocean, River, Sea" series and David Brin's last Uplift series. Too metaphysical, too diffuse, too vague. The narrative drive seems exhausted and the author gets really wooly. Maybe, I just don't like endings Pip --- ### Joel Priddy *27 May 2002, 12:32 · follows PMorris33* > My question to William and anyone else who cares to > answer is this: Have > you ever received a revelatory message about a > disliked Wolfe fiction that > made you "see the light" and revise your dislike of > it? More than once? > What were the fictions, what were the revelations, > to what degree did it > change your dislike (how many levels did it rise > up--did you actually come > to like it?), and how long ago was it? That as _Urth_ for me. I was annoyed and confused when I first read it. It just seemed to be a bunch more stuff tacked onto the end of TBOTLS. After reading this list for awhile, and then re-reading TBOTLS and Urth, I'm stunned and embarrassed that I missed so much. Hmm... add _Free_Live_Free_, which I still have reservations about, but appreciate a lot more after reading this list and then rereading. Both of these revisions occured... oh jeez, could it have been six years ago? Has this list really been around that long? Jumpin' Jiminy. -cephalothorax --- ### David Duffy *11 Jun 2002, 02:25 · follows Joel Priddy* > Well, an important point, which should not be glossed over, is > Severian's experience with Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. [Despite] > control techniques available to the rulers of Ascians, the human > spirit, so to speak, perseveres. The Ascians are not utterly-lost Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak? | David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\ | email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v --- ### matthew.malthouse *11 Jun 2002, 07:08 · follows David Duffy* >> On 11/06/2002 03:25:28 David Duffy wrote: >> Well, an important point, which should not be glossed over, is >> Severian's experience with Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. [Despite] >> control techniques available to the rulers of Ascians, the human >> spirit, so to speak, perseveres. The Ascians are not utterly-lost > Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak? I can't recall if it's been mulled over on list but that was certainly the very first thought that came into my mind when encountering Loyal. This subsequently informed my reading of all matters Ascian, particularly the nature of the war - that war, irrespective of outside influence, might be a tool of internal policy rather than motivated by external aims. I see no textural support for such a thought and neither did it seem significant to any aspect of narative or plot so I set the thought aside as inconsequential except perhaps in a literary criticism way. 1984 was and remains an influential work, especially in those years leading up to that date when there was almost a sort of millennarianism about. Recall that in the mid seventies the Soviet union showed no sign of the reformation we've since experienced, there appeared to be no prospect of any end to the cold war and 'godless communism' still seemed capable of gaining ground. It's possible to see allegory here but not, I think, necessary. It might have been quite plausible at the time to think such conflict inevitable and eternal short of divine intervention. Matthew --- ### Andy Robertson *11 Jun 2002, 07:45 · follows matthew.malthouse* ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell and Nuspeak? It is obvious that it is derived from 1984 and Nuspeak. The idea that the Ascian's war may be derived from the eternal war between Oceana/Eastasia/Eurasia is a good one. hartshorn --- ### Stephen Case *03 Jul 2002, 04:34 · follows Andy Robertson* Wow. Horn fleeing into Babbie. How'd I miss that? (In the books, understandable; but on the list, inexcusable.) Thanks Marc, that explains a lot and fits nicely. Not sure I follow on the trees, but since it sounds like you've already stated your opinions here several times, I won't ask. Maybe I'll get around to perusing the archives one day. -Steve --- ### Michael Straight *03 Jul 2002, 12:06 · follows Stephen Case* > On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Stephen Case wrote: > Wow. Horn fleeing into Babbie. How'd I miss that? I don't think that interpretation has achieved consensus yet. I don't agree with it. I have a half-completed write-up of my interpretation of what happens to Horn that I hope to post someday soon! -Rostrum --- ### PMorris33 *07 Jul 2002, 04:15 · follows Michael Straight* Love Jon Carroll. Please let us know what you learned from him. --- ### Alice K. Turner *08 Jul 2002, 13:27 · follows PMorris33* I didn't learn anything from him, though he may have learned something from me. We were discussing a writer, Dale Peck. Love Jon Carroll. Please let us know what you learned from him. --- ### Stephen Case *11 Jul 2002, 04:55 · follows Alice K. Turner* If Silk wasn't trying to commit suicide over Hyacinth's casket, then what is the significance of Silk/Horn and Remora's conversation about death and suicide at the end of the series? I thought the reason that kept Silk retreated into the Horn persona through most of the books was that he couldn't face the fact of himself committing suicide. When he finally did, he emerged. Didn't the Neighbors say something when Horn was dying about "transfering him into a healthy body who's soul was dying" or words to that effect? I took this to mean that Silk's body was relatively healthy-- he hadn't gone far enough to truly be in danger of death-- but that his soul was dying, i.e. he had decided to end it all, made the decision to quit living, given up. If Wolfe is a Christian, than this is one of the greatest moral crimes a man can commit. If Silk is a servant of the Outsider, the same is true, and the fact that he committed it, fell so far, is why he stayed hidden in Horn for so long. I think the suicide theory explains things rather nicely. What holes do you guys see? -Steve --- ### Stephen Case *18 Jul 2002, 05:53 · follows Stephen Case* Just tell me one thing about the Silk suicide/nonsuicide question: If Silk wasn't killing himself over Hyacinth's coffin, what significance does the scene (and in my opinion one of the most dramatic of the entire series) in RTW with Remora and the wedding passage have? If Silk isn't killing himself, then it seems to loose all meaning. At least to me. -Steve --- ### Jeff Wilson *03 Sep 2002, 03:31 · follows Stephen Case* > urth at urth.net wrote: > > Subject: > Re: (urth) Newt's main referent > From: > Michael Straight > Date: > Mon, 2 Sep 2002 01:16:54 -0400 (EDT) > To: > urth at urth.net > > > On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Alice K. Turner wrote: > > >> Good call, Nick. Some major convention (WorldCon, I guess) was held in, I >> think, Atlanta in the 80s and Newt, for reasons that I think had to do with >> Bruce Sterling, was the banquet speaker. >> > Also, at the time, Newt was one of the most famous science-fiction writers > in America (along with William Shatner and, arguably, Stephen King). Newt Gingrich co-authored _1945_ with professional SF writer William Forstchen. It was published late in 1995, but portions including a sex scene deleted from the final text were released during the 1994 election season. The convention appearance in Atlanta was most likely Dragon*Con 94 or 95. ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law -- ``` --- ### Binah *06 Sep 2002, 23:59 · follows Jeff Wilson* hope i posted this correctly- I think the 'chem" reference is definitely derived from Alchemy- I came across the word Azoth in Alchemy - The Art of Knowing, which was defined as:" Azoth was the measureless spirit of life and came from the outer regions of the universe to be poured into the four elements of earth, fire, air, and water." The author attributes the origins of the word to "early Egyptian writings" (somewhat vague, eh?) and I seem to remember coming across a reference to an Egyptian spiritual entity named Typhon (I can't remember where the reference was though). I believe that Wolfe must have at least a fairly deep understanding of the history of alchemy to employ these fairly obscure names and terms. A. Adair ---