{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2891", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2891, "subject": "In Glory Like Their Star (SPOILERS) F&SF Mag story", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-01-29T18:20:53+00:00", "last": "2002-01-30T17:36:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-01-29T18:20:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) In Glory Like Their Star (SPOILERS) F&SF Mag story", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know this is old news by now, but I was waiting until I could check the\nmagazine (F & SF, Oct/Nov 2001) out of my library to write; and then I was\nwaiting until Ranjit re-established the list to post. In any case, this is\nanother good but enigmatic story by Wolfe. I don't understand the\nnarrator's thought processes at all; perhaps that was Wolfe's intention?\n\nI agree with Nutria that the \"natives'\" approach to the aliens represents\npagan ritual, but I'd go further. Ancient mystery cults promised those who\nwere initiated immortality after death, and the narrator promises the man\nwho helps him immortality. The initiation ceremonies took place in a temple\nor cave, like the interior of the ship where the narrator tries to fulfill\nhis promise. The narrator tells all this to the natives; he believes he has\nsucceeded in explaining that he failed, but he's probably wrong (despite\nwhat he thinks, he comprehends the natives no better than they do him). I\nthink what we see in this story is the birth of a mystery religion.\n\nBut then there are those strange echoes of Christianity. Christ (in\nChristian doctrine) sacrificed himself knowingly, while the man sacrifices\nhimself unknowingly. Christ rose on the third day, while the narrator tries\nfor three days to give the man immortality and then kills him. Unlike\nJoshua, though, I see these echoes as parodic. (Or perhaps it's a\ncautionary tale: if you follow a false god, you get incinerated.)\n\nAnd why did the narrator kill the man? Was it out of mercy, since the man\nhas killed his beast and can't enter the narrator's ship, and so is doomed\nto die of thirst in the desert? But the narrator gives no explanation.\n\nAnother peculiar thing is the narrator's reference to two subspecies, one\nlarger and without tails, and \"the little ones with tails.\" My first\nthought was that the \"lesser\" subspecies were some sort of domestic animal,\nbut it's hard to see how the narrator would think that any such animal is of\nthe same species as humans (he's aware that the man's beast is a beast, and\nnot of the man's species). The other possibility that occurred to me was\nthat the \"lesser\" subspecies is women, but of course women don't have tails.\nThis makes me wonder if the story really takes place on Earth (the\nnarrator's reference to Earth could be a translation of whatever the\n\"natives\" call their planet)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 8/31/01 7:28 PM, Endy9 at endymion91 at home.com wrote:\n2. What is the deal about the earth not being a sphere because the desert\nis a flat spot where gravity works differently? Is the desert the\nmysterious hidden \"Eden\" man is still searching for? Something on a\ndifferent plane where gravity, time, etc. work differently that the alien\ncould see but man can't?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the narrator's misapprehension. He thinks that in the desert \"the\nhorizon is larger than a place of this size can produce,\" and deduces that\nthe desert is geometrically flat; that is not following the earth's\ncurvature, but a plane intersecting the earth's sphere. If this were the\ncase, then the desert's edges would be further from the center of the earth\nthan the desert's center, so walking away from the center would be like\nwalking uphill (though I doubt that the effect would actually be\nperceptible; certainly not at the center itslef)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Why does the narrator talk of traveling \"alone\" but make many references\nto \"others\" who aren't earth dwellers from what I can tell?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He came to the solar system with the \"others,\" but travelled alone with his\nscout to the earth's surface. After finding his scout again he returned to\nhis ship, and then he and the others landed and met the natives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Sol died?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; if Sol had actually died \"in glory,\" that could only mean it had gone\nnova, in which case there could be no life on earth. When the narrator says\n\"died swiftly and in glory like their star,\" it is the star, not the death\nof the star, which is \"in glory.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sentence about the earth man stopping his\nbeast and causing it to lie down on the desert sand for some reason made me\nthink it could be a camel in the past or a hovercar in the future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since the narrator goes on to talk about him and the native eating the\nbeast, presumably it's not a hovercar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joshua wrote:\nEverything but the desert appeared to vanish as the narrator approached. On\none level, this merely implies that the narrator's journey took a long time.\nOn another level, it might mean that material things *effectively*\ndisappeared for the narrator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely this just refers to mirages?\n\n--Adam\n\nQuestions or problems: write ranjit at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-01-30T17:36:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) In Glory Like Their Star (SPOILERS) F&SF Mag story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My thinking on this story was very similar to what Adam posted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, this is\nanother good but enigmatic story by Wolfe. I don't understand the\nnarrator's thought processes at all; perhaps that was Wolfe's intention?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. There is something opaque about the narrator and the story:\nwhether this is due to alien-ness or something-being-hidden or\nsomething-else-again seems to be an open question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with Nutria that the \"natives'\" approach to the aliens represents\npagan ritual, but I'd go further. Ancient mystery cults promised those who\nwere initiated immortality after death, and the narrator promises the man\nwho helps him immortality. The initiation ceremonies took place in a temple\nor cave, like the interior of the ship where the narrator tries to fulfill\nhis promise. The narrator tells all this to the natives; he believes he has\nsucceeded in explaining that he failed, but he's probably wrong (despite\nwhat he thinks, he comprehends the natives no better than they do him). I\nthink what we see in this story is the birth of a mystery religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I agree. I don't recall if Nutria's trailblazing posts covered what\nI am about to suggest, thus it seems new to me, but I also thought that the\nnatives were directing the space traveler into being like a god. That is,\nit wasn't exactly a top-down, \"me-god, you worship\" type of thing, but more\nof a movement from bottom to top. The traveler is being manipulated into\nacting like a god, but the traveler resists certain things, so the result\nis by definition a compromise of visions. To me the story is \"The\nFisherman and the Genie Bottle\" crossed with the formation of a\nmystery/cargo cult, finally becoming the tale of a reluctant god." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another peculiar thing is the narrator's reference to two subspecies, one\nlarger and without tails, and \"the little ones with tails.\" My first\nthought was that the \"lesser\" subspecies were some sort of domestic animal,\nbut it's hard to see how the narrator would think that any such animal is of\nthe same species as humans (he's aware that the man's beast is a beast, and\nnot of the man's species). The other possibility that occurred to me was\nthat the \"lesser\" subspecies is women, but of course women don't have tails.\nThis makes me wonder if the story really takes place on Earth (the\nnarrator's reference to Earth could be a translation of whatever the\n\"natives\" call their planet)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. And that whole weird thing about the desert . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the narrator's misapprehension. He thinks that in the desert \"the\nhorizon is larger than a place of this size can produce,\" and deduces that\nthe desert is geometrically flat; that is not following the earth's\ncurvature, but a plane intersecting the earth's sphere. If this were the\ncase, then the desert's edges would be further from the center of the earth\nthan the desert's center, so walking away from the center would be like\nwalking uphill (though I doubt that the effect would actually be\nperceptible; certainly not at the center itslef)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's use some numbers here. On Earth-like planets (diameter), in a region\nof flat-smoothness (ocean, sandy wastes), a standing human will perceive\nthe horizon at about 5 km away. Anything further than that would be\nabnormal.\n\nSo I started thinking about places like the Gobi Desert, and that old\nkook/pulp notion that it was created by nuclear explosions by ancient\nastronauts. The narrator's description makes the relation of the planet to\nthe desert spot like an orange that has had its peel grated a bit: a sphere\nwhich has had a small, glancing slice removed.\n\nHow big would this circle be? Traveling 5 km is trivial: the narrator\ntravels many days, but in many different directions.\n\nThen there is the navigational weirdness, which seems somewhat like being\nat one of the poles with a compass and then the pole starts (impossibly)\nmoving. If the \"compass\" of the story is reacting to magnetic fields, it\nmay be responding to buried magnetized masses, a cluster of local \"poles\"\nof a sort." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No; if Sol had actually died \"in glory,\" that could only mean it had gone\nnova, in which case there could be no life on earth. When the narrator says\n\"died swiftly and in glory like their star,\" it is the star, not the death\nof the star, which is \"in glory.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree about the nova, but I myself took the \"solar glory\" to mean\nthat the native was washed by the ship's fusion exhaust as it launched.\nBecause I'm otherwise vague on how the swift glory came about after the\ntrials of three days." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joshua wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Everything but the desert appeared to vanish as the narrator approached. On\none level, this merely implies that the narrator's journey took a long time.\nOn another level, it might mean that material things *effectively*\ndisappeared for the narrator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely this just refers to mirages?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, mirages. But this, in turn, fed into my \"vanished cities of the\nancients\" sense of the story. That is: they point to the possiblity of\nvanished cities on this otherwise pre-city planet.\n\nGene Wolfe's \"Planet of the Apes\"? It does seem a bit like it, especially\nwith the smaller species having tails.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\n\nQuestions or problems: write ranjit at urth.net" } ] } ] }