Subject: (urth) hybrids/ green mankiller/Sinew

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:26:21 +0000

It was very astutely noted by Rostrum (sorry if I got that wrong - a very long 
digest) that hybrids are the key, not plant genetics.  Of course, that is also 
what I am saying - hybridization between tree and man allows Blue to be Ushas.
 Horn's son cannot see the connection between where they are right now and 
hybridization, but Horn says it has everything to do with where they are now.

Also, thanks for the info on Crowley, Alga.

Joe, I have also pondered the green mankiller references.  He has two very 
long tusks - first I thought it was Babbie coming back, but now that I 
honestly believe Babbie is Horn, I don't know for sure ... but there is also 
that fascinating part in The Shadow of the Torturer I've never been able to 
get straight, where Severian is walking around in his dream and it seems like 
Triskele has become a big scary thing lurking in the basement that talks to 
him.  Could this have anything to do with Sev/Triskele, or should we look more 
explicitly within the Book of the Short Sun?  Also, remember that one of the 
last scenes involves Triskele and I really haven't been able to justify that 
scene in my mind, especially if you believe that Silk is mostly in control 
from the end of On Blue's Waters, with only the smallest fragment of Horn left 
inside him, and that Sev does not need to resurrect him.  I think the green 
mankiller is definitely worth looking up.

On another note, did anybody ever get the feeling that Horn hates Sinew so 
much because he was somehow responsible for killing Krait?  Remember Inclito's 
story about brother killing brother ... the death of Krait is still sketchy 
for me.  How was he wounded?  Even Horn's death (on green) is still odd.

Thanks for your responses, everybody.
Marc Aramini

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:12:38 +0000

> hybridization, but Horn says it has everything to do with where they are now.

Wolfe has other symbolic things going on, but what Horn is saying is that
they can only go so far with derivative technology (like the hybrid corn
seed).  They are trying to use tech that is twice removed from the
original planet it was developed on (Urth-->Whorl-->Blue) and it's not
working.  The hybrid corn is just the most obvious example.  They need to
go back to the Whorl to try to recover more technology (agricultural and
otherwise) that is closer to the source.

Horn's point is that in order to get closer to the original, you have to
leave Blue and go back to the Whorl, which is the opposite of the
significance you're trying to read into it.

(I still don't buy the plant/human hybrid theory, nor the Blue=Urth
theory, but you have brought up some interesting details and possible
connections.)

> for me.  How was he wounded?  Even Horn's death (on green) is still odd.

It's implied that Krait was wounded in fighting with the humans against
the inhumi and their slaves.  Horn says in IGJ that Sinew and the others
refused to go back for Krait and were in the process of leaving the
wounded Horn on his own and that Horn had to struggle to return for Krait
(Horn didn't know it was Krait, or wasn't admiting it to himself, although
he had noticed there was one too many people among them).

But unless the narrator is seriously skewing Horn's memories, Horn
(mistakenly) believed that Sinew hated him long before they went to Green.
If anything, I'd say that the fact we can so clearly read between the
lines and see that Sinew really loved Horn is because Silk can see what
Horn can't and is influencing the narrator's account.

-Rostrum

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:12:56 +0000

--- maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
...
> him.
...

"a huge friend with dripping jaws that spoke to me" (if I have it right
after looking it up last night)--not so scary.  It's right after Severian
meets Triskele.

Where's the green mankiller?  (If looking it up is any trouble, don't
bother.  I can take the trouble myself.)

-- 
Jerry Friedman

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:51:58 +0000

--- Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu> wrote:
...

...

Has anyone connected this with Luke 24?

13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus,
about seven miles from Jerusalem.
14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened.
15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus
himself came up and walked along with them;
16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

(New International Version from <http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?>.)

See also "The Waste Land" and Eliot's notes.

Jerry Friedman

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