{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2919", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2919, "subject": "lost in the big woods", "messages": 6, "voices": 6, "first": "1998-01-01T03:36:24+00:00", "last": "2002-02-05T20:37:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joe Eull", "address": "lo_phan17 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2002-02-04T23:29:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lost in the big woods", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding sex in the sun books:\n\nI think that Severian's description of his relationships with women has done\na lot to cement Wolfe's reputation as sexist. The scene you're talking about\nis a particularly affecting one. Without re-reading, Severian seems to hate\nJolenta for her relationship with Dorcas, and more importantly for the lust\nshe engenders in him is a reflection of her desire to be desired. He says\nshe made a tribadist of Dorcas, and nearly an algophilist of himself.\n(lesbian, ghoul-lover respectively). My girlfriend at the time stopped\nreading the book at this point and handed it back to me saying it was\ndisgusting. I don't blame her, Severian is talking about killing her and\nraping her dead body for spite.\nThe subject of sex in Wolfe deserves extended treatment. Although I don't\nconsider his writings sexist, I've had some uncomfortable thoughts about his\nwork. Still, this scene is important. Urth, at the time of the red sun, is a\nbarbaric place and Severian is a product of the society. I think if the\nwriter had held back on his depictions it would have been dishonest.\n\n\nMarc mentioned reading" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Claw of the Conciliator in the fifth grade or so. That's a pretty\nscary\ndescription to a young boy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't have been able to follow the book in grade five. I think we were\nprobably reading it about the same time, though. I'm 34 and read it at\ntwenty, in 1988. How did you hear about it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here is one more that might be just coincidental: Horn falls in that big\npit >on the island. If you buy my theory that this recreates the vanished\npeople by hybridizing man and tree, then Horn acts as an impregnating\nphallus \"lost in the big woods\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As for buying the theory: I'm agnostic about it. For my money, there's a\nstrong possibility that Blue is Ushas, and I think you've done some\ninteresting work justifying the premise. I think only additional reading and\ndiscussion will work out the details. As I've written here before I've been\ngestating on tree symbolism in Urth otNS for too long. One thing I came\nacross was this concept from the Kabbalah about Zaddiks. A zaddik is a\nrighteous man. Zaddik is the ninth letter, just as Yesod is the ninth\nsephiroth. Although I can't find my notes on this right now, I recall that\nthere has to be a pillar from our world to Yesod, which is created by these\nrighteous men. Severian's quest it would seem is about recreating this\npillar. Note the similarity of Tzadkiel and Zaddik. The ship Severian\ntravels on looks like a tree, which stretches from Urth to Yesod (note a\nsimilarity also between the ship which stretches from the old world to the\nnew in Peace's St. Brendan's Land). Severian becomes a Father here\n(phallus/pillar) and engenders a new sun.\n How does this connect to Horn in his pit? Horn is a \"fallen\" man. In his\npit he is helped by a neighbour (only time we see ones face) and an inhumi.\nAccording to your theory a neighbour is created from Horn, and his name is\nHorn also. This involves a genetic crossing with trees (hope I'm correct\nhere). Could there be another engendering happening here? The one in UNS is\none which connects an ending to a beginning. You might say that's tue here\nas it connects the conclusion of the work to it's beginning. I think some\nquestions have to be answered first.\n\nHow has Horn been \"every being of his kind\"? (pg 272 pb OBW). This is said\nby the neighbour Horn to Horn before he is resurrected in Silk. Horn has\nbeen (so far) a son, student, lover, fighter, colonist, husband, father,\nmill builder, adulterer, sailor, quest taker....and more. Except for the\nlast, many New Vironese men could probably claim to be all these things\n(replace miller with smith or cooper if you like).\nWhat do the writers mean by \"his (?) search for the fabled town of Pajarocu\"\nin the Afterword to RTTW (pg 409 tor hc).\nTypically, my analysis just brings up questions I can't answer but I have to\nsay I like your theory more and more.\n\nJoe.\n\n\nPS: is the Neighbour whorl one of the sephiroth?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-02-05T05:30:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lost in the big woods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Joe Eull\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding sex in the sun books:\n\nI think that Severian's description of his relationships with women has done\na lot to cement Wolfe's reputation as sexist. The scene you're talking about\nis a particularly affecting one. Without re-reading, Severian seems to hate\nJolenta for her relationship with Dorcas, and more importantly for the lust\nshe engenders in him is a reflection of her desire to be desired. He says\nshe made a tribadist of Dorcas, and nearly an algophilist of himself.\n(lesbian, ghoul-lover respectively). My girlfriend at the time stopped\nreading the book at this point and handed it back to me saying it was\ndisgusting. I don't blame her, Severian is talking about killing her and\nraping her dead body for spite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t\"algophilist\" is more what we call masochism. It sounds more like\nJolenta toyed with Severian, to see how much misery he would endure for\na chance to sleep with her than anything remotely like necrophilia." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-02-05T11:54:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lost in the big woods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 04/02/2002 23:29:06 Joe Eull wrote:\nRegarding sex in the sun books:\n\nI think that Severian's description of his relationships with women has done\na lot to cement Wolfe's reputation as sexist. The scene you're talking about\nis a particularly affecting one. Without re-reading, Severian seems to hate\nJolenta for her relationship with Dorcas, and more importantly for the lust\nshe engenders in him is a reflection of her desire to be desired. He says\nshe made a tribadist of Dorcas, and nearly an algophilist of himself.\n(lesbian, ghoul-lover respectively)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you come to algophilist = ghoul-lover?\n\nI parsed that as pain lover, ie sadist, or aproaching that.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-02-05T15:53:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lost in the big woods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Joe Eull wrote:\nThe subject of sex in Wolfe deserves extended treatment. Although I don't\nconsider his writings sexist, I've had some uncomfortable thoughts about his\nwork. Still, this scene is important. Urth, at the time of the red sun, is a\nbarbaric place and Severian is a product of the society. I think if the\nwriter had held back on his depictions it would have been dishonest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems possible to me that Wolfe's treatment of sex may be related to\nChristian doctines about sexuality. The main orthodox understanding of\nsex seems to be that though sex is a good thing, in fallen human beings,\nsexuality gets warped in all kinds of bad ways. A lot of SF writing (e.g.\nHeinlein) seems to think almost any kind of sexual desire or activity is\nhealthy and good. Or at least that many kinds of sex that are well\noutside the mainstream for our society is (would be) healthy and good.\n\nSo it may be that Wolfe continually probes at the ickiest kinds of\nsexuality in reaction to that, to get readers to realize that they don't\nreally think that any sort of sexual desire is good and healthy (which is\nobvious once you state it that baldly, but you do still run into people\nwho seem to think the only thing wrong with sexuality is repressing or\ndenying ones desires).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-02-05T20:37:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lost in the big woods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Joe Eull wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I've written here before I've been\ngestating on tree symbolism in Urth otNS for too long. One thing I came\nacross was this concept from the Kabbalah about Zaddiks. A zaddik is a\nrighteous man. Zaddik is the ninth letter, just as Yesod is the ninth\nsephiroth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Strangely enough, I made this same mistake when I was Hebrew school, but\nthe eighteenth (not ninth) letter of the Hebrew alphabet is tzadi or sadhe\n(with a dot under the s) or however you like to transliterate it, not\nzaddik or tzaddiq or however you like to transliterate it. Its sound was\noriginally an \"emphatic\" s, whatever that is, but now it's the sound of\nEnglish ts. The root tz-d-q originally meant correct or right, if I'm not\nmistaken, but words built on it mean \"righteous man\", \"justice\",\n\"charity\", \"prosperity\", etc. I don't think this root is connected with\nthe name of the letter, but I might not be \"tzodeq\".\n\n(Some might care to compare \"tzedaqah\", correctness, with its Latin\ntranslation \"caritas\", dearness, and thus start on comparing Jewish and\nChristian ideas of charity.)\n\nIf \"sephiroth\" is a regular word, the singular is \"sephirah\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although I can't find my notes on this right now, I recall\nthat\nthere has to be a pillar from our world to Yesod, which is created by\nthese\nrighteous men. Severian's quest it would seem is about recreating this\npillar. Note the similarity of Tzadkiel and Zaddik." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is a real connection, that is, \"Tzadkiel\" might be\ntransliterated as \"Tzadqiel\" (or sadhqiel or whatever), and would mean\nsomething like \"God's righteousness\". I'm not sure because there's\nanother Hebrew letter with a k sound. (I'm also not sure about those -iel\nnames.)\n\n[snip things I'd have to think more about]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How has Horn been \"every being of his kind\"? (pg 272 pb OBW). This is\nsaid\nby the neighbour Horn to Horn before he is resurrected in Silk. Horn has\nbeen (so far) a son, student, lover, fighter, colonist, husband, father,\nmill builder, adulterer, sailor, quest taker....and more. Except for the\nlast, many New Vironese men could probably claim to be all these things\n(replace miller with smith or cooper if you like)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's a good question. The person you *could* say that about is\nSeverian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do the writers mean by \"his (?) search for the fabled town of\nPajarocu\"\nin the Afterword to RTTW (pg 409 tor hc)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Marc got this one. They're talking about the person they knew who\nlooked like Silk, and questioning whether he's the same person as the Horn\nwho searched for Pajarocu.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "PS: is the Neighbour whorl one of the sephiroth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems quite reasonable Or it could be reached by walking the corridors of\ntime.\n\nThanks (and thank you, Marc) for answering my green-mankiller question.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-01-01T03:36:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lost in the big woods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Straight\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The subject of sex in Wolfe deserves extended treatment.\nalthough I don't consider his writings sexist," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems possible to me that Wolfe's treatment of sex may be\nrelated to Christian doctines about sexuality. The main orthodox\nunderstanding of sex seems to be that though sex is a good thing,\nin fallen human beings, sexuality gets warped in all kinds of bad ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe seems to me to be admirably realistic about sexual matters, except in\nTBOTNS, where Severian's sexual crippling is fundamental to his being.\n\nIt seems that Severian is sterile, and that he cannot become fertile until\nhe has been judged fit to be Autarch, and then either given license to\npropagate his genes or castrated.\n\nBut he is the last Autarch, and his progeny, if any, will inhabit Ushas.\n\nHis avid fornications and his incestuous love are the flipside of this\nfuture fertility, and are appropriate to the dying Urth.\n\n hartshorn\n." } ] } ] }