Subject: (urth) lost in the big woods

From: Joe Eull <lo_phan17 at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 23:29:06 +0000

Regarding sex in the sun books:

I think that Severian's description of his relationships with women has done
a lot to cement Wolfe's reputation as sexist. The scene you're talking about
is a particularly affecting one. Without re-reading, Severian seems to hate
Jolenta for her relationship with Dorcas, and more importantly for the lust
she engenders in him is a reflection of her desire to be desired. He says
she made a tribadist of Dorcas, and nearly an algophilist of himself.
(lesbian, ghoul-lover respectively). My girlfriend at the time stopped
reading the book at this point and handed it back to me saying it was
disgusting. I don't blame her, Severian is talking about killing her and
raping her dead body for spite.
The subject of sex in Wolfe deserves extended treatment. Although I don't
consider his writings sexist, I've had some uncomfortable thoughts about his
work. Still, this scene is important. Urth, at the time of the red sun, is a
barbaric place and Severian is a product of the society. I think if the
writer had held back on his depictions it would have been dishonest.

Marc mentioned reading
> The Claw of the Conciliator in the fifth grade or so.  That's a pretty
scary
> description to a young boy.
I wouldn't have been able to follow the book in grade five. I think we were
probably reading it about the same time, though. I'm 34 and read it at
twenty, in 1988. How did you hear about it?

>Here is one more that might be just coincidental: Horn falls in that big
pit >on the island.  If you buy my theory that this recreates the vanished
>people by hybridizing man and tree, then Horn acts as an impregnating
>phallus "lost in the big woods".

As for buying the theory: I'm agnostic about it. For my money, there's a
strong possibility that Blue is Ushas, and I think you've done some
interesting work justifying the premise. I think only additional reading and
discussion will work out the details. As I've written here before I've been
gestating on tree symbolism in Urth otNS for too long. One thing I came
across was this concept from the Kabbalah about  Zaddiks. A zaddik is a
righteous man. Zaddik is the ninth letter, just as Yesod is the ninth
sephiroth. Although I can't find my notes on this right now, I recall that
there has to be a pillar from our world to Yesod, which is created by these
righteous men. Severian's quest it would seem is about recreating this
pillar. Note the similarity of Tzadkiel and Zaddik. The ship Severian
travels on looks like a tree, which stretches from Urth to Yesod (note a
similarity also between the ship which stretches from the old world to the
new in Peace's St. Brendan's Land). Severian becomes a Father here
(phallus/pillar) and engenders a new sun.
 How does this connect to Horn in his pit? Horn is a "fallen" man. In his
pit he is helped by a neighbour (only time we see ones face) and an inhumi.
According to your theory a  neighbour is created from Horn, and his name is
Horn also. This involves a genetic crossing with trees (hope I'm correct
here). Could there be another engendering happening here? The one in UNS is
one which connects an ending to a beginning. You might say that's tue here
as it connects the conclusion of the work to it's beginning. I think some
questions have to be answered first.

How has Horn been "every being of his kind"? (pg 272 pb OBW).  This is said
by the neighbour Horn to Horn before he is resurrected in Silk. Horn has
been (so far) a son, student, lover, fighter, colonist, husband, father,
mill builder, adulterer, sailor, quest taker....and more. Except for the
last, many New Vironese men could probably claim to be all these things
(replace miller with smith or cooper if you like).
What do the writers mean by "his (?) search for the fabled town of Pajarocu"
in the Afterword to RTTW (pg 409 tor hc).
Typically, my analysis just brings up questions I can't answer but I have to
say I like your theory more and more.

Joe.

PS: is the Neighbour whorl one of the sephiroth?

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 05:30:28 +0000

>      From: 
>           "Joe Eull" <lo_phan17 at hotmail.com>

> raping her dead body for spite.

	"algophilist" is more what we call masochism. It sounds more like
Jolenta toyed with Severian, to see how much misery he would endure for
a chance to sleep with her than anything remotely like necrophilia.

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:54:35 +0000

On 04/02/2002 23:29:06 Joe Eull wrote:

>(lesbian, ghoul-lover respectively).

How do you come to algophilist = ghoul-lover?

I parsed that as pain lover, ie sadist, or aproaching that.

Matthew

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:53:45 +0000

> writer had held back on his depictions it would have been dishonest.

It seems possible to me that Wolfe's treatment of sex may be related to
Christian doctines about sexuality.  The main orthodox understanding of
sex seems to be that though sex is a good thing, in fallen human beings,
sexuality gets warped in all kinds of bad ways.  A lot of SF writing (e.g.
Heinlein) seems to think almost any kind of sexual desire or activity is
healthy and good.  Or at least that many kinds of sex that are well
outside the mainstream for our society is (would be) healthy and good.

So it may be that Wolfe continually probes at the ickiest kinds of
sexuality in reaction to that, to get readers to realize that they don't
really think that any sort of sexual desire is good and healthy (which is
obvious once you state it that baldly, but you do still run into people
who seem to think the only thing wrong with sexuality is repressing or
denying ones desires).

-Rostrum

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:37:20 +0000

--- Joe Eull <lo_phan17 at hotmail.com> wrote:
...

> As I've written here before I've been
> sephiroth.

Strangely enough, I made this same mistake when I was Hebrew school, but
the eighteenth (not ninth) letter of the Hebrew alphabet is tzadi or sadhe
(with a dot under the s) or however you like to transliterate it, not
zaddik or tzaddiq or however you like to transliterate it.  Its sound was
originally an "emphatic" s, whatever that is, but now it's the sound of
English ts.  The root tz-d-q originally meant correct or right, if I'm not
mistaken, but words built on it mean "righteous man", "justice",
"charity", "prosperity", etc.  I don't think this root is connected with
the name of the letter, but I might not be "tzodeq".

(Some might care to compare "tzedaqah", correctness, with its Latin
translation "caritas", dearness, and thus start on comparing Jewish and
Christian ideas of charity.)

If "sephiroth" is a regular word, the singular is "sephirah".

> Although I can't find my notes on this right now, I recall
> that
> pillar. Note the similarity of Tzadkiel and Zaddik.

I think this is a real connection, that is, "Tzadkiel" might be
transliterated as "Tzadqiel" (or sadhqiel or whatever), and would mean
something like "God's righteousness".  I'm not sure because there's
another Hebrew letter with a k sound.  (I'm also not sure about those -iel
names.)

[snip things I'd have to think more about]
 
> (replace miller with smith or cooper if you like).

Now that's a good question.  The person you *could* say that about is
Severian.

> in the Afterword to RTTW (pg 409 tor hc).

I think Marc got this one.  They're talking about the person they knew who
looked like Silk, and questioning whether he's the same person as the Horn
who searched for Pajarocu.
...

> PS: is the Neighbour whorl one of the sephiroth?

Seems quite reasonable  Or it could be reached by walking the corridors of
time.

Thanks (and thank you, Marc) for answering my green-mankiller question.

Jerry Friedman

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 03:36:24 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Straight" <straight at email.unc.edu>
>
> > The subject of sex in Wolfe deserves extended treatment.
> > although I don't consider his writings sexist,

> It seems possible to me that Wolfe's treatment of sex may be
> related to Christian doctines about sexuality.  The main orthodox
> understanding of sex seems to be that though sex is a good thing,
> in fallen human beings, sexuality gets warped in all kinds of bad ways.

Wolfe seems to me to be admirably realistic about sexual matters, except in
TBOTNS, where Severian's sexual crippling is fundamental to his being.

It seems that Severian is sterile, and that he cannot become fertile until
he has been judged fit to be Autarch, and then either given license to
propagate his genes or castrated.

But he is the last Autarch, and his progeny, if any, will inhabit Ushas.

His avid fornications and his incestuous love are the flipside of this
future fertility, and are appropriate to the dying Urth.

    hartshorn
.

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