{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2938",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 2938,
    "subject": "race in Wolfe",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2002-02-09T12:29:49+00:00",
    "last": "2002-02-09T19:34:40+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0202-111@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Andy Robertson",
        "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk"
      },
      "date": "2002-02-09T12:29:49+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: race in Wolfe",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "----- Original Message -----"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "From: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" <mantis at siriusfiction.com>\nurl: http://www.ultan.co.uk"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "FWIW I read the essay and enjoyed it. It is mainly about things and issues\nsurrounding Colonizer/Colonized, a reading of 5HC that addresses\nColonialism. It starts off with a survey of what has been written over the\nyears on this aspect of 5HC.  Using this to set the context, Wright then\ngoes further than any have dared before."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Interesting.\n\nI note one thing.  Wright casually uses the term \"white\" for coloniser, but\nwhat is notable about  TFHOC is that the colonised \"abos\" such as Sandwalker\nare very white physically.  ((If these are abos and not humans imitating\nabos.))\n\nWolfe is in fact quite notable for making the poor and oppressed in his\nbooks be specifically poor whites.\n\nI do not mean that there are not occasional cameos by those of other\nethnicity, but that his books are relatively free from PC pantomimes of\nethnic white guilt.   It is usually whites who are the oppressed and\npersecuted.\n\nHas anyone given any seriouss thought to the treatment of race in Wolfe?\n\n    hartshorn"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0202-114@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi",
        "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com"
      },
      "date": "2002-02-09T19:34:40+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: race in Wolfe",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0202-111@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Hartshorn wrote:\nI note one thing.  Wright casually uses the term \"white\" for coloniser, but\nwhat is notable about  TFHOC is that the colonised \"abos\" such as Sandwalker\nare very white physically.  ((If these are abos and not humans imitating\nabos.))"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "In a similar vein, I thought at first Wright was perhaps over-simplifying\nby presenting two monolithic groups, colonizer and colonized.  After all,\nwe are certain that the colonizers include the Anglophones as well as the\nFrancophones; we have reason to believe that the colonized include Hill\nPeople and Marshmen, if not even more diverse groups (the \"trees\"; the\nShadow Children).\n\nAside from the mimicry of colonizers by colonized (which is the bullseye of\n5HC), on Earth we also have the reverse--the mimicry of colonized by\ncolonizers (tobacco, jazz music, etc.). Is there evidence of this in 5HC?\n\nThen again, I also realize that simplification is often required to get\nlarger  points across, and in the end I thought the simplification was\njustified for the purpose and length of the essay.\n\nAnother thing I wondered about was this: often it is the case that a reader\ncannot determine what an essayist's favored reading is until the end of the\nessay.  We cannot tell \"where the litcritter is coming from,\" in other\nwords, until we piece together the clues after the essay is done.\n\nIn 5HC, for example, there are branches of the tree, for one example:\nVeil's Hypothesis (+ [reading says \"true\"], 0 [reading says \"maybe\"], -\n[reading says \"false\"]).\n\nDepending on how a reading scores Veil's Hypothesis, certain later branches\nopen or close. If abos exist, can they change shape; etc. And is the\ntwin-planet system Eden, the original birthplace of homo sapiens sapiens?\n(Although this comes earlier, in a sense.)\n\nSo in the end one would have a string of alpha-numerics, like those \"geek\ncodes\" you might see used by afficionados to signal their personal likes\nand dislikes within the canon or category.\n\nThese Wolfe-codes could be used at the beginning of an essay or message to\nprovide introduction/deep context.\n\nThere would be a string like \"AbaiaWin=+; AutarchySham=+;\nSeverianAntichrist=+\" which would mean a non-consensus reading where since\nAbaia wins (with the flooding of Urth), and the Autarchy is a sham\npuppetshow put on by agents of Yesod, then Severian is the antichrist.\n\nThe Wolfe-code system is just a wild and silly notion.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}