{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2954", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2954, "subject": "CWilliams", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-02-11T16:00:38+00:00", "last": "2002-02-12T09:12:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-02-11T16:00:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) CWilliams", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hartshorn wrote:\nSpecifically, the real-life Japanese kamikazi is an expression of a\nreligion\nwhich literally deifies a tribal leader - the Emperor.\n\nCatholics regard this with horror." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The horror! The horror! \n\n(See, he was right.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See the mystical/Catholic poetry of Charles Williams, TALIESSIN THROUGH\nLOGRES and THE REGION OF THE SUMMER STARS, for a powerful expression of\nthis\nhorror." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm.... While I agree that the Emperor of P'o-Lu is a very powerful \nimage, I'm not as certain as you of several things here ... beginning\nwith the idea that Williams' poetry was \"Catholic.\" \n\nCharles Williams was, depending upon how you take him, either an Anglican or\n\na weird, possibly-heretical Christian mystic who derived too many of his \nideas from the Golden Dawn circle. -- the \"either\" there was not intended as\n\na binarism, btw, but as an indicator of the extremes of opinion; mine falls \nrather in between. Williams was very much an admirer of the early medieval \nCatholic church -- and quite as much an admirer of the Orthodox church; \nByzantium is every bit as much an image of holy order in the \"Taliessin\" \ncycle as is Rome (though, admittedly, the image of Byzantium is the image \nof the holy-ordered Empire: and, while much of the Byzantine imagery is the \nimagery of the Orthodox churhc, nothing about his \"Byzantium\" presents any \ndirect challenge to the religious authority of the Pope).\n\nSecond, I am not as certain as you that the headless Emperor of P'o-Lu is an\n\nimage of the tribal leader deified. He is, I think, an image of a demon \ndeified; of the reality that lurks behind an idol. His being headless is the\n\nkey here: he is an Authority with no authority, with, indeed, no mind at\nall. \n(I have occasionally wondered whether Williams was familiar with HPL's \nAzathoth, but that's a separate matter...) His servants are not humans but \noctopotowockles of some sort: details slip my mind.\n\nThird, I am not as certain that the word \"Catholics\" is the correct word to \nuse when you say \"Catholics regard this with horror.\" I think that\nChristians \nof most denominations* regard the deification of a human leader with a \njustifiable horror, whether it be the Son of Heaven or the Great House.\n\n-----\n* Including that denomination that goes under the very peculiar\n name \"nondenominational\"\n-----\n\nAll that aside, I very much second the recommendation of Williams' Arthurian\n\npoems, which I have been reading, and occasionally understanding, for a\nquarter\nof a century now. These poems were praised by both CS Lewis and TS Eliot -\nand \nwhen these two agreed on anything about poetry, it was a momentous occasion.\n\n\nWilliams published two collections of his major Arthurian poems in his\nlifetime,\ncalled (as Hartshorn notes) TALIESSIN THROUGH LOGRES and THE REGION OF THE\nSUMMER STARS. These might be available in either of two useful forms. \n\nThe older edition is an omnibus from Eerdman's, a Christian publisher in the\n\nAmerican North, which is (sadly) out of print but not hard to find. It\ncontained \nnot only these two books but a third, ARTHURIAN TORSO, which was itself a\nsort \nof omnibus containing (1) a brilliant but unfinished (because he died) essay\nby \nWilliams on the history of the Arthurian legends; and (2) an essay by CS\nLewis \non Williams' Arthurian poetry, valuable to someone who (like me) finds\npoetry\nin general and modern poetry in particular rather hard going.\n\nThe newer is an edition in the \"Arthurian Poets\" series, edited by David\nWesley\nDodds, which contains the two collections mentioned above, a number of\nearlier\nArthurian poems, and a number of additional poems (finished and unfinished)\nCW\nhad written for a third volume, unfinished at his death, plus a more textual\nand less beginner-friendly essay by Dodds.\n\nAmazon US wants to charge you $72.00 for it, and takes \"5 to 6 weeks\" to\nship:\nhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0859913279/qid\u001013442372/sr=1-5/refsr_1_5/103-5771779-9450200\n\nAmazon UK will charge only £13.59, and will \"usually dispatch\" within 24\nhours, \nbut shipping to the US may make it a push for Americans, both financially\nand\nchronologially:\nhttp://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0851152910/refí_ra_of_dp/202-6670\n415-5459065\n\ncheers,\n\nBlattid" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-02-12T09:12:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) CWilliams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nHartshorn wrote:\nThe horror! The horror!\n\n(See, he was right.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sarky!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummmm.... While I agree that the Emperor of P'o-Lu\nis a very powerful image, I'm not as certain as you of\nseveral things here ... beginning with the idea that Williams'\npoetry was \"Catholic.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, \"Catholic\" in the catholic sense then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, I am not as certain as you that the headless Emperor of P'o-Lu is\nan\n\nimage of the tribal leader deified. He is, I think, an image of\na demon deified; of the reality that lurks behind an idol.\nHis being headless is the" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Complex. The real-life Emperor represents a combination of tribal leader\nand religious leader elevated to godhood. Williams' headless Emperor is a\ndemonic image of this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "key here: he is an Authority with no authority, with, indeed, no mind at\nall.\n(I have occasionally wondered whether Williams was familiar with HPL's\nAzathoth, but that's a separate matter...) His servants are not humans but\noctopotowockles of some sort: details slip my mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Giant octopedes. R'yleh cannot be far away, IA!!! CTHULHU FTHAGN!!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Third, I am not as certain that the word \"Catholics\" is the correct word\nto\nuse when you say \"Catholics regard this with horror.\" I think that\nChristians" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Humble apologies" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All that aside, I very much second the recommendation of Williams'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Arthurian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "poems, which I have been reading, and occasionally understanding, for a\nquarter of a century now. These poems were praised by both\n CS Lewis and TS Eliot - and\nwhen these two agreed on anything about poetry, it was a\n momentous occasion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a pleasure to find someone of a like mind. (( Shall I post a few of\nthe poems here? Or not? ))\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] } ] }