{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2956", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2956, "subject": "An IGJ question", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-02-12T09:03:48+00:00", "last": "2002-02-13T16:11:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tom Foster", "address": "t.foster2 at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2002-02-12T09:03:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An IGJ question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've just finished reading IN GREEN'S JUNGLES and am puzzled by quite a few\nthings. One of the main things that I can't really get my head around is the\nway in which Oreb appears when transported to Green or the Red Sun Whorl\nthrough Incanto's strange 'magic'. Incanto describes him several times as a\n\"dwarfish man in feathers\" and \"a miniature airship\" and he can apparently\nuse his wingtip feathers as fingers in these scenes, yet he can still fly.\nWhy does he look like this? I think that I vaguely understand why the\ninhuma become real people when transported through Incanto (though I'm not\nsure I could put it into words), but I really don't understand this business\nwith Oreb.\n\nSpeaking of Oreb, what do people make of the point in the book when Incanto\nsays that he seriously considered sacrificing Oreb? Surely he couldn't\npossibly think of doing this after all that the two/three of them have been\nthrough together (I haven't read RTTW yet, so I'm not sure exactly when Oreb\nis reuinted with Silk/Horn). Besides, Oreb's not *just* a night chough is\nhe? (Though once again I'm not sure I could accurately say exactly what he\nis - a kind of oracle for the gods?)\n\nThanks in advance for any insights people can offer - I'm sure that when I\nfinish RTTW I'll have a lot more questions!\n\n\nTom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-02-12T14:28:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) An IGJ question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I realized after I wrote this that I'm including a few spoilers from\nReturn to the Whorl. So read at your own risk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Tom Foster wrote:\nOne of the main things that I can't really get my head around is the\nway in which Oreb appears when transported to Green or the Red Sun Whorl\nthrough Incanto's strange 'magic'. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The inhumi become human when they are transported because they have human\nsouls, or at least because they want to be human. Jahlee says that the\nforms they have on Green are their real selves, but it's possible that's\njust her wishful thinking.\n\nThe narrator looks more like Horn when transported, which is another point\nin favor of the idea that it's some sort of spirit travel in which one\nsees the traveller's true spirit or soul.\n\nLike Oreb, Babbie becomes more human-looking when transported, and\nSeawrack had told Horn that, though he didn't recognize it, Babbie was a\nperson. Moreover, Babbie's personhood was derivative, because he was\n(spending time with? loved by?) Horn, and might fade away if he went back\nto living in the wild.\n\nSo it seems Oreb might be transformed into a part-human creature because\nhe is a person. And, like Babbie, that personhood may be derivative,\nbecause he is tamed, or loved, by Silk/Horn. (I think that Oreb\nvocabulary increases, that he uses a few words on Green that he doesn't\nuse elsewhere - names of food at Sinew's house, I think.)\n\nI am reminded of a passage of in C.S. Lewis's book _The Problem of Pain_. \nHe has a chapter at the end about animal pain and he speculates that if\nanimals go to heaven, it may be because the animal, in being close to a\nhuman being has attained its true selfhood in relationship to that human\nbeing. A Google search found this quote: Certain animals \"may therefore\nhave an immortality, not in themselves, but in the immortality of their\nmasters.... In other words, the man will know his dog: the dog will know\nits master and, in knowing him, will *be* itself.\"\n\nWhether or not Wolfe had Lewis's ideas in mind, the idea of derivative\npersonhood seems to be a theme of the series, in the inhumi, in Babbie,\nand presumably even in the chems. The chems seem to be true persons, and\nto be able to mix souls the way Horn and Silk do. Surely they are persons\nbecause humans have programmed them to be like humans (and note the\nsimilarity between Fr. Incus making Hammerstone his friend and the gods\nposessing human beings).\n\nThe other thing to consider is that Oreb has been posessed by Scylla, so\nit's possible that Oreb's personhood is in some way caused by that\nposession. (Do we know when Oreb was first posessed?) Similarly, it\nseems obvious that Babbie was first tamed by Mucor posessing him, so\nperhaps his continued personhood is a result of having been posessed. (Is\nthere any evidence that Mucor's posessions have lingering effects on\npeople the way posession by a god does?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of Oreb, what do people make of the point in the book when Incanto\nsays that he seriously considered sacrificing Oreb? Surely he couldn't\npossibly think of doing this after all that the two/three of them have been\nthrough together (I haven't read RTTW yet, so I'm not sure exactly when Oreb\nis reuinted with Silk/Horn). Besides, Oreb's not *just* a night chough is\nhe? (Though once again I'm not sure I could accurately say exactly what he\nis - a kind of oracle for the gods?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the odd things in the Short Sun books, is that the narrator always\ntalks as if he thinks Oreb is far less remarkable than he is. Could\nScylla be purposely giving him some kind of blind spot so that he doesn't\nnotice that she's in there? (But then, eventually it seems she's been\ntrying to make contact with him, to enlist his help in rescuing her.)\n\nIt reminds me of how Horn seems unwilling to recognize Babbie's\npersonhood. In addition to Seawrack's comments on the subject, there's\nthe passage on the floating islands where Horn has the odd feeling that\nthere's another person with him, but then \"realizes\" that it's only\nBabbie. Maybe this is just Wolfe characterizing Horn as in some way blind\nto the way things are (similar to how Horn doesn't see that Sinew really\nloves him).\n\nEven so, it's hard to imagine Incanto sacrificing his beloved pet, even if\nhe only thinks of him as an animal. I think the other thing going on here\nprobably has something to do with the Eucharistic imagery. Incanto has an\nenounter with the Outsider and has an overwhelming urge to offer\nsacrifice. (How much of this urge comes from his upbringing in the\nVironese faith, how much from the nature of the Outsider, we don't know.) \nInstead of an animal, he offers bread and wine, which in Catholic theology\nliterally become the body and blood of Christ, the sacrifice which\nsupercedes all other sacrifices. The fact that Incanto ponders\nsacrificing Oreb underlines the idea that Incanto sees the sharing of\nbread and wine as a form of sacrifice rather than just some kind of ritual\nmeal.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2002-02-12T17:58:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) An IGJ question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even so, it's hard to imagine Incanto sacrificing his beloved pet, even if\nhe only thinks of him as an animal. I think the other thing going on here\nprobably has something to do with the Eucharistic imagery. Incanto has an\nenounter with the Outsider and has an overwhelming urge to offer\nsacrifice. (How much of this urge comes from his upbringing in the\nVironese faith, how much from the nature of the Outsider, we don't know.)\nInstead of an animal, he offers bread and wine, which in Catholic theology\nliterally become the body and blood of Christ, the sacrifice which\nsupercedes all other sacrifices. The fact that Incanto ponders\nsacrificing Oreb underlines the idea that Incanto sees the sharing of\nbread and wine as a form of sacrifice rather than just some kind of ritual\nmeal.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is why I think Marc is on to something with his animal-plant hybrid \ntheory. Christianity moves sacrifice from human/animal to bread/wine. \nConsuming sacramental bread and wine, we become new persons. Thus, it makes \nsense at a symbolic level to have \"plant-humans\" as eschatological human \nbeings.\n To put it another way, God provided grace and union with Himself \nvia animal sacrifices in the Old Creation, but in the New Creation He uses \nplants.\n When Jesus healed the blind man, his first response was \"I see men \nas trees walking.\"\n Wolfe could definitely be playing with this symbolism.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tom Foster", "address": "t.foster2 at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2002-02-13T09:08:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) An IGJ question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Rostrum for an extremely informative and helpful post.\n\nHere's one of the other main things that's been puzzling me: why does the\nnarrator of OBW/IGJ not need to eat very much? This crops up fairly\nfrequently, particularly in the latter parts of IGJ but is never explained,\nat least as far as I noticed. One example of this that really stood out to\nme occurs in the chapter 'Why are the inhumi like us?' On pp344 the\nnarrator tells Hide that one way of identifying an inhumi is to be wary \"of\nanyone who appears not to eat, or to eat very little\". Only a few pages\nearlier Hide had said to the narrator, \"You don't eat much. While I've been\nwith you, you've hardly eaten at all\". The narrator replies \"I eat far too\nmuch. I try constantly - perhaps I should say I try to try constantly - to\nkeep it in check\". There are many examples of the narrator saying similar\nthings in both books and it seems very odd. If Hide were to follow his\nfather's advice then he should be wary of his father surely! Is the\nnarrator fasting, is it something to do with the Silk/Horn transmigration,\nor is this something that is explained in RTTW?\n\nI also thought that the meeting on Green with Chenille and Auk (and later\nSinew?) could have been described in a bit more detail to say the least. I\nknow Wolfe likes to be obtuse (and I love him for it), but I had been\nwaiting throughout the first two books for a meeting with these two\ncharacters, and next to nothing is explained.\n\nThe more I think about the New/Long/Short Sun books, the more I think of\nthings that puzzle me! That's certainly one of the best things about Wolfe,\nbut it would be nice if I came away from them feeling that I had understood\neven a fraction of what he is getting at! I'm starting to feel that when I\nfinish RTTW I'll have to go back and read the New Sun books for the forth\ntime...\n\n\nTom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-02-13T16:11:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) An IGJ question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Tom Foster wrote:\nHere's one of the other main things that's been puzzling me: why does the\nnarrator of OBW/IGJ not need to eat very much? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk's body may not used to eating much. Remember in _Nightside_ where\ncouple fried tomatoes, and apple, and a crust of bread are a\nmouth-watering feast? That was when he was a poor priest, but it's\npossible he continued to eat lightly and fast regularly even when he was\nCalde and later when he lived with Hyacinth. Eat that way for years and\nthen suddenly start trying to eat like Horn was accustomed, and you'll get\npretty sick.\n\nAlso note we only start hearing about the food in IGJ, not OBW (not sure\nif it's mentioned in the Whorl scenes of RTW, which I'm just starting to\nre-read now). Which to me indicates it might also be evidence of parts of\nSilk's personality slowly re-asserting themselves. \"What have I been\nthinking eating like this?\"\n\nI agree that Incanto's words, \"beware those who don't eat much,\" seem like\nthey must be connected. But no inhumi could hold a pen and write in neat\ntiny letters as Incanto does, so that can't be it. Perhaps the connection\nis that, like the inhumi, Incanto is not who he seems to be. Except, he\nis.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }