{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2967", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2967, "subject": "Horn and Silk", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-02-19T16:51:03+00:00", "last": "2002-02-19T20:48:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-02-19T16:51:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm tossing some ideas around here for play. Toss 'em back if you \ndon't like 'em; play with 'em yourself if you do.\n\nI think one thing that needs to be addressed is the nature of the \nrelationship of tBotSS to tBotLS, and I think the best model is the\nrelationship between the Gospels and the other books of the New\nTestament.\n\nIt has recently been suggested by several persons on this forum that \nSilk directly inspires LONG, thus giving it a greater level of veracity \nor accuracy than SHORT, or at least than those parts of SHORT that deal \nwith Horn prior to his becoming bleshed with Silk (and possibly some \nnameless inhumu). Now, it seems to me that, given that Silk is very much \na messianic figure for the people of the Short Sun Whorls, and that Horn \nis the author of one, but not the only, account of the deeds of Silk,\nwe need to look at the Apostles for our models of Horn. \n\nMy first inclination is to look at St. Paul. Quite aside from the obvious\nOdyssey parallel, one could easily see SHORT as in some ways paralleling\nthe missionary voyages of Paul - complete with shipwrecks, the insistence\nof the principal on earning his way when the local people want to give him\nall he needs, etc., etc. There is, however, a very serious objection to \nthe use of Paul as a model for Horn: Paul's (well, Saul's) persecution of \nthe early Church, prior to his conversion, is a stark contrast to Horn's \nposition as possibly Silk's first convert, and certainly a convert prior \nto the founding of the Silk cult.\n\nThe next choice would seem to be Peter. I don't recall anything in LONG\nthat would parallel Peter's moment of doubt - but then, there's nothing\nin LONG that really parallels the Crucifixion either: perhaps a less\nliteral approach is required here. At that point, things become a little\nmore promising. Horn, like Peter, is the first to recognize the unique\nnature of his Master. Horn stays at home (well, new-home) with his people\nuntil at last he sets out on a journey which results in his death.\n\nBut that really doesn't work either. Another option would be John, and\nindeed one can see some parallels to John's apocalyptic visions in the\nNarr's experiences on Green and the Whorl.\n\nBut to be honest, I think in the end any such search for specific \nparallels is going to fall apart, because Horn isn't any of them - he\nis a unique character, in a very different situation from first-century\nJudaea: and at the same time, he amalgamates aspects of at least these\nthree, and perhaps several others of the Apostles and Evangelists. And\nthe voyages of Paul thus become relevant and interesting again \n(especially if we think of Krait as a possible parallel to Luke ...\nhorrors!). We then see that Silk, as a result of his experiences on\nhis voyage, ultimately is indwelt by the Spirit of Silk ... or is it\nthat Silk is indwelt by the spirit of Horn? This becomes complex and\nconfusing.\n\nComments? Sneers?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2002-02-19T17:47:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " No sneers from me. I've maintained this from the beginning, here \nand there. Certainly the Long Sun is based roughly on the gospels, though I \nthink *Exodus* has some of Acts in it, and the end of *Exodus* is \napocalyptic, like Revelation: the Whorl is coming to an end in fire.\n In Long Sun, Auk is most like Peter, the \"stumbling, bumbling \nPeter\" of the gospels (in common mythology anyway). But I think you are on \ntarget in suggesting Horn as something new as well as something old (just \nas Silk is both new and old, but like and unlike Jesus). Maybe the voyages \nhave something to do with Paul, though Paul went out as an evangelist and \nHorn's mission is quite different -- a pilgrimage to the Holy Land (see \nbelow). As you write, Horn was already a disciple, a kind of Mark (the very \nyoung man who grew up to write a gospel). But if we superimpose Peter on \nHorn, then his voyage to horrible Green can be seen as Peter's journey to \nRome, where he died -- though this is not in the New Testament, and \nprotestants like me don't believe it happened, yet it is a central part of \nWolfe's Roman Catholic committments.\n Horn's actual mission, to bring Silk back, and \"corn-silk\" for a \nnew world, might be a spin on the Revelation to St. John, which climaxes \nwith the return of Christ and a new heavens and earth. But I think it is \nmore a pilgrimage to bring back powerful relics (see below).\n But for the triple political transformations that occur in the \nnarrative, we would have to move beyond the New Testament into the \npolitical effects of the Christian gospel on the Roman Empire, on the \ntribes of northern Europe, etc. Also, the \"incorporation\" of a transformed \nversion of pagan deities and myths is part of Roman Catholic history \n(rejected by us protestants, in the main). Wolfe believes there is much to \nthis RC tradition. Thus, in Short Sun we start to get hints of Pas & Co. \nbeing somehow incorporated and transformed into the new \"religion.\" And \nthink of the \"Mother.\" The old Earth Mother became united to the mother of \nJesus and became a lot of the popular stuff about the Perpetually Virgin \nMary of Roman Catholicism. Wolfe accepts this as part of the gathering and \ntransforming effect of the Christian gospel. I suspect that in Short Sun \nhe's spinning on this kind of thing, in its beginning stages. Eventually \nthe Mother will become linked with the mother(s) of Messiah Silk. (?)\n The inhumi are kind of like the unconverted gentiles, who were \ndominated by demons before the gospel came. They have to be blended with \nthe \"Jews\" into the new Church. Don't we see the beginning of this kind of \nprocess in the Short Sun, ESPECIALLY if the human-plant hybrid hypothesis \nis correct?\n With the Silk narrative as \"inspired\" while the Horn-Silk \nnarrative is NOT \"inspired,\" I think we are mostly moving beyond the New \nTestament as a whole and into the early Church. As I mentioned above, it \nlooks like the Long Sun goes clear through Acts to Revelation.\n So, while were speculating: Maybe in part Horn's trip to the Whorl \nis like a medieval pilgrimage to the Holy Land to acquire relics to bring \nback home. Along the way, we encounter gentile Muslims (inhumi), and when \nwe get to the Holy Land, things are really bad there: It has fallen into \nbad shape and into bad hands. At the end, does Silkhorn return as a kind of \nCrusader to retake the Whorl?\n In all, I think that there are allusions, but Wolfe has \nconstructed a new narrative that is not just an allegory -- though there \nare more allegorical elements in Long Sun than I've seen in Short Sun. \nAllusion rather than allegory would be the ticket, I think.\n At any rate, I think you are right on track with ONE aspect of the \nnarratives.\n\nPatera Nutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:51 AM 2/19/2002, you wrote:\nI'm tossing some ideas around here for play. Toss 'em back if you\ndon't like 'em; play with 'em yourself if you do.\n\nI think one thing that needs to be addressed is the nature of the\nrelationship of tBotSS to tBotLS, and I think the best model is the\nrelationship between the Gospels and the other books of the New\nTestament.\n\nIt has recently been suggested by several persons on this forum that\nSilk directly inspires LONG, thus giving it a greater level of veracity\nor accuracy than SHORT, or at least than those parts of SHORT that deal\nwith Horn prior to his becoming bleshed with Silk (and possibly some\nnameless inhumu). Now, it seems to me that, given that Silk is very much\na messianic figure for the people of the Short Sun Whorls, and that Horn\nis the author of one, but not the only, account of the deeds of Silk,\nwe need to look at the Apostles for our models of Horn.\n\nMy first inclination is to look at St. Paul. Quite aside from the obvious\nOdyssey parallel, one could easily see SHORT as in some ways paralleling\nthe missionary voyages of Paul - complete with shipwrecks, the insistence\nof the principal on earning his way when the local people want to give him\nall he needs, etc., etc. There is, however, a very serious objection to\nthe use of Paul as a model for Horn: Paul's (well, Saul's) persecution of\nthe early Church, prior to his conversion, is a stark contrast to Horn's\nposition as possibly Silk's first convert, and certainly a convert prior\nto the founding of the Silk cult.\n\nThe next choice would seem to be Peter. I don't recall anything in LONG\nthat would parallel Peter's moment of doubt - but then, there's nothing\nin LONG that really parallels the Crucifixion either: perhaps a less\nliteral approach is required here. At that point, things become a little\nmore promising. Horn, like Peter, is the first to recognize the unique\nnature of his Master. Horn stays at home (well, new-home) with his people\nuntil at last he sets out on a journey which results in his death.\n\nBut that really doesn't work either. Another option would be John, and\nindeed one can see some parallels to John's apocalyptic visions in the\nNarr's experiences on Green and the Whorl.\n\nBut to be honest, I think in the end any such search for specific\nparallels is going to fall apart, because Horn isn't any of them - he\nis a unique character, in a very different situation from first-century\nJudaea: and at the same time, he amalgamates aspects of at least these\nthree, and perhaps several others of the Apostles and Evangelists. And\nthe voyages of Paul thus become relevant and interesting again\n(especially if we think of Krait as a possible parallel to Luke ...\nhorrors!). We then see that Silk, as a result of his experiences on\nhis voyage, ultimately is indwelt by the Spirit of Silk ... or is it\nthat Silk is indwelt by the spirit of Horn? This becomes complex and\nconfusing.\n\nComments? Sneers?\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-02-19T19:32:39+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria,\n\nThanks for the thoughtful (and, by-and-large, supporting) remarks.\n\nI see your point about _Exodus_ having some aspects of Acts and of\nRev.; but even if I thought those aspects were stronger than I do,\nthere's nothing in LONG that in any way parallels the Epistles. I \nguess the point that really tipped it over for me, and then I forgot\nto mention it in my previous post, was the the observation that much \nof SHORT is written in a sort of extended epistolary form. The first \ntwo books, and the first \"I\" sections of the third, are a huge letter \nhome. Further, there is the interesting parallel between the letters, \nlike Hebrews, that seem not to have actually been written by Paul but \nby someone writing in (so to speak) his voice: I think this bears \nsome looking at in regard to the authorship of the Book of Horn,and \nespecially of RttW. \n\nI hadn't thought of adding Matthew to the mix, but he's an interesting\nchoice. (Was it him or Mark who started out as a tax collector? Can't\nrecall off hand. At any rate, I don't see much relevance to that...)\n\nThe interesting thing is that, though he isn't consciously evangelizing,\nwherever he goes, the Narrator spreads and adds to the myth of Silk. \nHe makes clear early on, though he never says it, that the people of\nGaon think he's Silk - I believe the way he puts it is that he is the\nonly person in Gaon who doesn't know where Silk is.\n\nWhat I am suggesting, though, is not that we should \"superimpose Peter \non Horn,\" or that we look at Horn as a parallel to Paul, Peter, or any \nof the other particular Apostles and Evangelists, but rather as a sort \nof parallel to all of them - that is, in much the way that Silk and \nespecially Severian play so much of the role of Christ's life without \n_being_ him, so too I think Horn is profitably seen as playing out a \nrole that could be called \"apostle-and-evangelist,\" but not as actually \nrepeating or replaying the life of any specific Apostle or Evangelist. \nMy own stumbling and bumbling through various details about Peter and \nPaul, in other words, wasn't aimed at saying \"Which is he like?\" so \nmuch as \"He's like one of them.\"\n\nAll of which should teach me that I'd best not try to express this sort \nof thing at unGodly hours of the morning.\n\nI really can't see the Narr's travels as a \"pilgrimage to the Holy Land\"\nor anything to parallel the Crusades - primarily because I really can't \nsee the \"Church of Silk\" having arrived at anything near the medieval \nstage in the short time the exodants have been on the Short Sun Whorls. \nI do see your point about the effect of the Gospel on the various tribes;\nand while there is no overarching Empire of the sort that conditioned\nand informed the travels of Paul and other early missionaries, the \nsituation reminds me more of these than it does that of the early-medieval\nmissionaries like Augustine and Cyril. I'm willing to be convinced,\nthough.\n\nBut I think we have here a situation at roughly the stage where Peter \nand Paul are just beginning to realize, and to tell the others, that \nthe Goyim have to be let into the church - a fair parallel to the \ninspir(it)ed Narrator's somewhat mysterious insistence on treating \nJahlee and Fava as people (because of the Secret Of The Inhumi). So\nyour comments about the \"unconverted Gentiles\" are in fact right on\nthe mark, but militate for an earlier parallel. (Historically, though,\nI can't think of anything that might parallel the Secret. The Secret\nof the Gentiles? Puh-leeze.)\n\nThat this may add some nuances to our thoughts about the way(s) in which \nSilk and Horn are present in each other. Horn has quite literally become \nincorporated into the Body of Silk; but he is enabled to act, and granted \nhis wisdom, through the power of the Spirit of Silk. H'mmmm... I wonder \nif these books are ultimately going to prove to be quite inaccessible to \nanyone unwilling to really think from a Christian-Catholic point of view?\n\nInteresting comments about \"the Mother\"/Silk's Mother/the Earth Mother/\nthe BVM. Yes, Catholicism does a great deal of syncretism (incorporation \nof local mythology) - on, I believe, the assumption that these mythologies \nwere God's way of preparing the various peoples of the world to receive \nChrist. But historically, the reverence of the BVM goes back very early \nindeed; and while this would not be, from the Protestant PoV, an argument \nfor reverence of the BVM, it _is_ an argument, from the Catholic (i.e.,\nWolfe's) PoV for not thinking that said reverence of the BVM comes from\nthis sort of syncretism.\n\nStill and all: if we accept LONG as being the \"parallel\" to the _entire_\nNT, then perhaps it's worth looking at SHORT as a hagiographic legend?\nCertainly a number of these involved apparitions of Christ.\n\nObviously Wolfe has constructed a \"new narrative that is not just an\nallegory\"; but the same can be said even of books of any quality (e.g.,\nLewis's Narnian tales) that blatantly _are_ allegories: that is, they \nare not _just_ allegories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Side note, from Dan'l to James: You wrote:\nhis voyage to horrible Green can be seen as Peter's journey to Rome,\nwhere he died -- though this is not in the New Testament, and\nprotestants like me don't believe it happened, yet it is a central part\nof Wolfe's Roman Catholic committments." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never quite understood this, btw - most Protestants believe many \nthings that aren't in the Bible (i.e., \"Cannibalism and polygyny are\nwrong,\" \"Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo,\" \"The Gospel according to\nMatthew is divinely inspired, but the Gospel according to Thomas is\nnot,\" etc.) - why do so many Protestants feel so strongly about rejecting\nthis particular bit of historical trivia? I mean, it isn't as if this\nis in any material way the basis of the claims of the Papacy.\n\n--D" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-02-19T20:48:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've mentioned before another way in which the Long Sun books remind me of\nthe book of Acts.\n\nActs is written in third person for the first 75% of the book, then it\nsuddenly shifts to first person for a bit (the writer suddenly starts\ntalking about what \"we\" did and where \"we\" went).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }