{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2969", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2969, "subject": "Roy's Notes on \"Hour of Trust\"", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-02-19T19:57:16+00:00", "last": "2002-02-24T00:51:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-02-19T19:57:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roy's Notes on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy Lackey wrote a solid message, beginning:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think mantis was on the right path to interpreting this story when he\nviewed the suicide-bomber tactics of the rebels as unacceptably barbaric. In\nthe context of the story, I doubt that Wolfe's sympathies lay with either\nthe de facto corporate government or the rebels. Neither side was \"right\",\nbut one may have been more wrong than the other. Clio's final paragraph\ndecrying the ethos of corporate America echoes Ben Free, who, I think, was\nexpressing Wolfe's sentiments regarding the 20th century\ngovernmental/corporate stifling of individual initiative and freedom." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy went on to point out more notes on the title, saying that the \"hour\" in\nquestion is pinpointed at the death of the three ken-kins; and supposition\nof further infiltration of the corporates by Tredgold.\n\nSo Roy, I can see you position on this, but what do you make of the ending?\nDoes it seem \"foreshadowed but still somewhat off\" (in my first sense of\n\"Why would a mole go kablooie on they guy like that?\") or does it make\nperfect sense?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nNone of the three ken-kins (is the hyphen\nthere just because of the line break?) we are told anything about appear in\nany way noble or even well grounded in reality. They seem to have no common\ncause except a willingness to die and kill others in the process." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree completely: as presented at this stage in the story they are\nclearly pawns being coopted, if not coerced, by the rebels. Things are\ndifferent if one sees Clio's act as leadership leading by example.\n\nPart of the problem in answering these questions is we don't see any of the\nrebels: we see the ken-kins, who seem like something worse than\ncannon-fodder, and we see masked Clio (and probably Tredgold) who are\nhigher up, but of nebulous category/rank. So we don't have a sense of what\nthe mass of rebels is like, what they want, what they are willing to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nThen there is Tredgold, who gets too much ink in the story to be ignored. He\nis the same age as Peters, but seems much older. He opens Peters' eyes to\nthe realities of corporate life, and is at least partly responsible for\nPeters' change from a good corporation \"yes\" man at the beginning of the\nevening to the wannabe, boat-rocking corporate soldier at the end. (The\nirony is that Clio [who presumably is on the side of the rebels against the\ncorporations] kills Peters when he continues to talk of making a difference,\nof exercising personal initiative to change the way corporations do things,\nright after lecturing him about what was wrong with corporations/big\ngovernment--that they were mindless, bureaucratic entities who only wanted\nto preserve the status quo--which is what the rebels were rebelling against\nin the first place.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree about Clio, still I think she really is urging Peters to go\nalong with the flow of history, if you will, and if he agrees then she\nwould spare him. (Then again, having writ that, I wonder if I'm still\nattaching too much importance to Peters as a hero having any kind of effect\non his own fate?)\nFrom her point, it is too late for the type of change you are talking\nabout: the revolution is in full bloom, the corporations are mortally\nwounded (even if they don't know it yet), the tide of history has moved\nonto whatever the rebels will do for their time on the stage (having won\nthe war it remains to be seen whether they succeed at the cultural\nchallenge or not).\n\nBack to the telescreens: we are told that the one in the main room has no\ncurtain, and can only give privacy when it is turned off. We don't see\nPeters turn off the screen in the bedroom (this also ties into the \"did\nthey do the nasty or are they still just starting?\" question). But then\nagain, are the many calls on hold (I envision each as a little window with\na face) able to see Peters even when they are on hold?\n\nIn any event, the sense that Clio's speech on corporate sloth is less for\nPeters than for a rebel audience. Yes, no, maybe, other.\n\nFinally, Roy, which side do you think was more wrong? Every example points\nto the rebels, but that Ben Free ref . . . oh, I see: that ref is to show\nWolfe's sympathy to the rebels. That they have a moral point (corporations\nbeing stupid), but this does not entitle them to barbaric solutions\n(suicide bombers).\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nNow with UPDATES!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-02-20T02:26:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Roy's Notes on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nSo Roy, I can see you position on this, but what do you make of the ending?\nDoes it seem \"foreshadowed but still somewhat off\" (in my first sense of\n\"Why would a mole go kablooie on they guy like that?\") or does it make\nperfect sense?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't make sense to me either; as you have pointed out, if Clio is a\nrebel with the cause, she is more valuable to the cause alive than Peters\nis, dead or alive. The reactions of Donovan and Burglund to Peters'\novertures make clear that the corporations' elite have no intentions of\ngetting their hands dirty doing whatever was needed to insure survival of\nthe corporate state. The corporations are therefore an evolutionary dead\nend. Contrast them with the bureaucratic state (the Library of Congress),\nthe first law of which is survival, which continues to function while the\nworld goes to hell around it, and does so without pay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of the problem in answering these questions is we don't see any of the\nrebels: we see the ken-kins, who seem like something worse than\ncannon-fodder, and we see masked Clio (and probably Tredgold) who are\nhigher up, but of nebulous category/rank. So we don't have a sense of what\nthe mass of rebels is like, what they want, what they are willing to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect that the apparent lack of focus on the rebels' objectives is\ndeliberate on Wolfe's part. Remember, this story had to have been written\nduring the Carter era. It was in part Wolfe's reaction to the '60s, the\nliberal bent of which, and the various \"protest\" movements of, he probably\nhad little empathy for or even understood. Post Vietnam, Watergate, Women's\nLib, \"free love\", \"save the whale\", etc., the world Wolfe grew up in must\nhave seemed to one of his generation devolving into anarchy, without fixed\nrules or boundaries. The opinions of a pimple-faced geek on the\ncorner--about anything--were held to be as valid as any others, regardless\nof ability or experience. The rebel-without-a-clue syndrome writ large." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I agree about Clio, still I think she really is urging Peters to go\nalong with the flow of history, if you will, and if he agrees then she\nwould spare him. (Then again, having writ that, I wonder if I'm still\nattaching too much importance to Peters as a hero having any kind of effect\non his own fate?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From her point, it is too late for the type of change you are talking\nabout: the revolution is in full bloom, the corporations are mortally\nwounded (even if they don't know it yet), the tide of history has moved\nonto whatever the rebels will do for their time on the stage (having won\nthe war it remains to be seen whether they succeed at the cultural\nchallenge or not)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you say, Clio perceives that the corporations will lose the war, so there\nis no good reason for her to kill Peters, if she is a mole. But is she?\nThere is really no good evidence to suppose she is. To make sense of the\nending, I think we have to look to the earlier examples of the ken-kins. As\nI said before, they have no unifying creed. Their reasons for 'sharing'\ntheir suicides vary from idealistic to religious to nutty to who-knows-what.\nThe only thing each may have in common is trust violated in some way. What\ntrust did Peters violate? That he hoped to rock the boat with change? Both\nshe and he knew it wouldn't work. That wasn't it; her reasons were more\npersonal. Could it be that Peters' actions belied his words, that history\nwas being repeated? Clio had recently stopped being Lewis's lover; now she\nfound herself in bed with his heir-apparent, and couldn't \"figure out why\".\nExit stage center." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Back to the telescreens: we are told that the one in the main room has no\ncurtain, and can only give privacy when it is turned off. We don't see\nPeters turn off the screen in the bedroom (this also ties into the \"did\nthey do the nasty or are they still just starting?\" question). But then\nagain, are the many calls on hold (I envision each as a little window with\na face) able to see Peters even when they are on hold?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the callers can't see into the bedroom when on hold; neither can they be\nseen.\n\n\"Then he hit Release, wondering if Tredgold had bothered to wait.\" (148)\n\nAdam is right; Clio exploded *after* having sex with Peters. The lights and,\npresumably, the vid screen were turned off.\n\n\"He took her hand in the dark.\" (last paragraph)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, Roy, which side do you think was more wrong? Every example points\nto the rebels, but that Ben Free ref . . . oh, I see: that ref is to show\nWolfe's sympathy to the rebels. That they have a moral point (corporations\nbeing stupid), but this does not entitle them to barbaric solutions\n(suicide bombers)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh, the rebels seem to be worse, but there aren't any good guys in this\nstory.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-02-22T20:11:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Roy's Notes on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been following the discussion with interest, but been busy; it's nice\nto be remembered. Anyway, I'll try to catch up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/19/02 1:57 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com wrote:\nRoy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "None of the three ken-kins (is the hyphen\nthere just because of the line break?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes; on p. 154 (Orb edition) the word occurs without a hyphen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "we are told anything about appear in\nany way noble or even well grounded in reality. They seem to have no common\ncause except a willingness to die and kill others in the process." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree completely: as presented at this stage in the story they are\nclearly pawns being coopted, if not coerced, by the rebels. Things are\ndifferent if one sees Clio's act as leadership leading by example." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rereading these sections, I'm not sure how we're supposed to respond to the\nsuicide bombers. I'm sure Wolfe finds the tactic immoral, but the kenkins\ndon't strike me as being pawns, or coerced. They don't seem to have been\nindoctrinated--I have the sense that the only form of \"recruitment\" is\nshowing footage like the footage we see--and the \"emcee\" repeatedly states\nthat they can back out at any time. Perhaps we should see this scene, and\nthis tactic, as indicating the aimlessness of the \"hippies\" of the story,\nand by extension of Wolfe's time; they're so directionless that the only\nmeaningful act they can conceive of is essentially random murder-suicide.\n(A point Roy has already made.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of the problem in answering these questions is we don't see any of the\nrebels: we see the ken-kins, who seem like something worse than\ncannon-fodder, and we see masked Clio (and probably Tredgold) who are\nhigher up, but of nebulous category/rank. So we don't have a sense of what\nthe mass of rebels is like, what they want, what they are willing to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't know what any of the rebels want; iirc none of them presents any\npolitical philosophy or program at all. They're clearly descended from the\ncounterculture, and are referred to as \"radical\" (153), but that's not\nspecific; Peters says \"A great part of the population of Detroit is still\nloyal to free enterpris\" (152), but that's ironic, since the corporations\nclearly don't represent \"free enterprise.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nRemember, this story had to have been written\nduring the Carter era. It was in part Wolfe's reaction to the '60s, the\nliberal bent of which, and the various \"protest\" movements of, he probably\nhad little empathy for or even understood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it was copyright 1973, which of course strengthens your point.\n(Lowell Lewis as Nixon? It's not as absurd as it may seem; Nixon was quite\nliberal compared to today's Republicans, and he instituted wage-price\ncontrols, which must have been anathema to Wolfe.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nSo wow, your reading of the ending is: a pure form of nihilism. That is,\nyou are saying that Clio is not a mole (agent of the rebels), she really is\na loyal worker like the rest, but she got the mental infection a little\nwhile ago (days, weeks--maybe when she stopped sleeping with Lewis), mixed\nup the firebomb ingredients on her own, put them on her person (or in the\nbedroom?), and then killed herself and Peters for no reason any better than\nthat of the ken-kins in the earlier part. It is the internal chaos and\nspiritual-vacuum of the individual, not any political or moral or\nhistorical (even \"millennial\") sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's pretty much how I now read it. She was a true believer in the\n\"government\" cause until recently, but from her exposure to Lewis has come\nto recognize that it's hopeless, so she kills herself out of despair.\nAlthough it is a \"historical\" judgment in a sense: history has nothing to\noffer her any more. Why she takes Peters with her I don't know; possibly a\nlast poke in the eye for the corporations which betrayed her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nAlso: how odd that the beginning has that flash-forward to Clio lighting\nthe candles later in the evening to cheer things up when the fighting was\ngoing badly. Definitely sets up the ending, and much of the story, as\nwell, but still it is odd. Seems to be the point of view of Peters, or a\nblend of Peters and narrator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the following sentence is significant too: \"Clio (that stenographic muse\nof history) was good for lighting such things: she was tall, and wore high\nheels and short skirts...\" The government side uses history merely as a\ndecoration, which is one reason why they're losing: recall that Virdon cites\nVietnam as evidence that \"what matters in combat is organization and fire\nsupport\" (152)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nYes, I think this is the reading that satisfied our friend Adam Stephanides\n(whom we haven't heard from since, hmmmm . . . check for burn marks!).\n\nThat is to say (my sense of it, until Adam returns): Clio is History. She\nis a supernatural force breaking through into the mundane world without any\nbells and whistles except for this implausible immolation bomb-thing. She\nhas been on the side of the corporations but now she is switching." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no; that's an interesting reading, but it wasn't in my mind at all.\nClio is History only in the sense that Moby Dick is the universe, or God, or\nwhatever; in realistic terms she's just an ordinary woman who's an employee\nand ex-mistress of Lewis's (and possibly a mole, though I tend to doubt it).\nHow she manages to burst into flame like that I have no idea; the\ndescription makes it sound like she's covered in gasoline or napalm or some\nsuch, rather than having a bomb taped to her, but you'd think Peters would\nhave noticed something like that. Perhaps they've developed a new improved\nincendiary. (About that ending: my edition reads \"The girl's body blossomed\nfire that engulfed and scared and clung...\"; \"scared\" is a typo for\n\"seared,\" I take it. And is there some significance to Clio's being\nreferred to, here and on the preceding page, as \"the girl\"?)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-02-22T20:37:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Roy's Notes on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nfire that engulfed and scared and clung...\"; \"scared\" is a typo for\n\"seared,\" I take it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it was a typo for \"scarred.\"\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-02-24T00:51:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Roy's Notes on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on 2/22/02 2:37 PM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:\nfire that engulfed and scared and clung...\"; \"scared\" is a typo for\n\"seared,\" I take it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought it was a typo for \"scarred.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was my first thought too, but it doesn't really fit; if Peters dies\nwhere he falls there's no time for the fire to \"scar\" him.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }