{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3000", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3000, "subject": "For Jerry- a response", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-02-27T04:42:14+00:00", "last": "2002-03-01T11:04:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-02-27T04:42:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry, The quote you bring up keeps emphasizing how old and ancient the world \naround the red star is. The distance is one of time. The present tense \nrefers to the transtemporal nature of Silk's gift (and Severian's - a thousand \nages in his sight are like an evening gone). God is outside of time. The \ndistance for him is no more real than one of space. The ancient and old \nimages imply that it is from a long, long time ago. The distance is real \nbecause the universe has moved so much since then. It was a long way away in \nspace and time, but Silk can travel there because he moves through time, like \nthe song of the mother is a song of time, as he claims that the only way to go \nback in time is through dreams, as he claims that his travels are dreams, etc.\n That's the best I can do.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-02-27T13:17:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, maa32 wrote:\ndistance for him is no more real than one of space. The ancient and old \nimages imply that it is from a long, long time ago. The distance is real \nbecause the universe has moved so much since then. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The universe has moved, but it's not moving faster than light, which it\nwould have to in order to be able to see the old red sun in the sky of\nBlue. \n\nI think the only way you can reconcile this detail with the idea that Blue\nis Urth is to say that Silk/Horn was mistaken when he tried to point out\nthe Red Sun of Urth, that he simply didn't know he was going back in time\nrather than to a different solar system. (And note that at the time\nSilk/Horn points out the Red Sun in the sky, he's saying all sorts of odd\nthings to try to get Juganu to take him to Urth -- he goes on for several\nparagraphs about all the women who are waiting, of how grateful the women\nprisoners of the Matchin Tower would be to someone coming to rescue them,\netc.)\n\nHowever, I think the better explanation is that Silk/Horn is right, and\nthat the Urth solar system is far away and not the same system as\nBlue/Green.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-02-27T16:18:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chiming in - \n\nMarc, while I find a lot of attraction in your theory that \nBlue/Green is a much older Ushas/Lune (particularly the implicit\nidentity of the Mother and Scylla-on-Urth), it just isn't plausible \nfor a largish variety of reasons. \n\nProbably the most significant of these, for me, is that if we take \nthe more-or-less canonical set of assumptions about the voyage of \nthe _Whorl_ (discussed in some detail in the archives by Mantis and \nothers), the timelines are just too _neat_ to drop: but there are \nalso the questions of Greenish gravity (despite the tower-climbing \nscene, I believe that lunar-type gravity would warrant some pretty\ndirect observation by a character coming from urth-type gravity),\nof the apparent visibility of Urth's red sun in the Bluvian sky, of\nthe doubled body parts of Bluvian life forms*, etc., etc.\n\n-----\n* but not Greenish life forms? I don't recall enough description\n of other Greenish beasties, but it seems pretty clear that the\n inhumi, at least, are four-limbed. Though ... h'mmm. Is it at\n any point stated clearly that the inhumi were equally successful\n at masquerading as Neighbors?\n-----\n\nAnyway, Marc, I think most of your other hypotheses about tBotSS \nwork just as well (or as poorly; I'm still sceptical-but-\ninterested, with the observation that there aren't very many \noverall models of this Book on display as yet) without trying to \nforce identity of Blue with Urth, Green with Lune. And, in the end,\nit _does_ feel forced: which is the problem. In general, when you \nhave a \"good\" model of one of Wolfe's texts, it doesn't feel forced." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-02-28T00:30:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Michael Straight " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, maa32 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "distance for him is no more real than one of space. The ancient and old\nimages imply that it is from a long, long time ago. The distance is real\nbecause the universe has moved so much since then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The universe has moved, but it's not moving faster than light, which it\nwould have to in order to be able to see the old red sun in the sky of\nBlue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIf the Whorl traveled through a region of space that curved back upon\nitself, then it's reasonable that the old Sun would be visible back\nalong the way they came. There's no particular reason for this to be\nimpossible based on the speed of light, as the BOTNS glosses over many\nsuch concerns to start with. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chiming in -\n\nMarc, while I find a lot of attraction in your theory that\nBlue/Green is a much older Ushas/Lune (particularly the implicit\nidentity of the Mother and Scylla-on-Urth), it just isn't plausible\nfor a largish variety of reasons.\n\nProbably the most significant of these, for me, is that if we take\nthe more-or-less canonical set of assumptions about the voyage of\nthe _Whorl_ (discussed in some detail in the archives by Mantis and\nothers), the timelines are just too _neat_ to drop: but there are\nalso the questions of Greenish gravity (despite the tower-climbing\nscene, I believe that lunar-type gravity would warrant some pretty\ndirect observation by a character coming from urth-type gravity),\nof the apparent visibility of Urth's red sun in the Bluvian sky, of\nthe doubled body parts of Bluvian life forms*, etc., etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been previously discussed that Lune hasn't sufficient gravity to\nretain an atmosphere; given that gravity manipulation is featured\ndiscretely in Severian's time, it's possible that Lune's gravity was\nincreased during the age of wonders to keep the air held down. There is\nalso the possibility that the Whorl's gravity was intentionally set\nlower than Urth's." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-02-27T23:20:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nIf the Whorl traveled through a region of space that curved back\nitself, then it's reasonable that the old Sun would be visible back\nalong the way they came." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This does not feel right.\n\nYou are correct that this sort of thing is often glossed over, but the Whorl\nis a STL generation starship and is not at the \"magical\" level of technology\nthat, for example, the Ship in UOTNS is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's been previously discussed that Lune hasn't sufficient\ngravity to retain an atmosphere; given that gravity manipulation\nis featured discretely in Severian's time, it's possible that\nLune's gravity was increased during the age of wonders\nto keep the air held down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually the moon would, I believe, hold an atmosphere for quite a long\ntime, but not for geological timespans.\n\nOne simple posibility is that a lot of smaller bodies were dumped upon it,\nincreasing its mass and its budget of volatiles. This offers a way of\nterraforming it at the \"Terran\" level of technology and also of increasing\nits gravity.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-02-28T16:42:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nIf the Whorl traveled through a region of space that curved back\nitself, then it's reasonable that the old Sun would be visible back\nalong the way they came.\n\n\nThis does not feel right.\n\nYou are correct that this sort of thing is often glossed over, but the\nWhorl\nis a STL generation starship and is not at the \"magical\" level of\ntechnology\nthat, for example, the Ship in UOTNS is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect Jeff is thinking of a space warp that was already there, either\nnaturally or created by someone like the Hierodules, which the _Whorl_\npassed through without anyone's knowledge (at least in the Cargo). This\nstrikes me as a lot to conclude on very slim evidence, since the physics\nis very hard to swallow and I don't remember anything like it anywhere\nelse in the books. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's been previously discussed that Lune hasn't sufficient\ngravity to retain an atmosphere; given that gravity manipulation\nis featured discretely in Severian's time, it's possible that\nLune's gravity was increased during the age of wonders\nto keep the air held down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With light-bending space warps and gravity control, you could make a case\nfor anything you want: that Green is the other side of Blue, that the\nBluvian fauna's doubled members (stop me now!) are an effect of double\nrefraction by space warps in the atmosphere, that the whole thing was\nreally written by Charles Kinbote.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-02-28T15:34:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \n\nWith light-bending space warps and gravity control, you could make a case\nfor anything you want:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the fundamental thing about SF is how it feels.\n\nScience fiction is myth-making, not rationality.\n\nThe Whorl is a BDO, a human-made thing, a Generation Starship like the one\nin \"Orphans Of the Sky\", with nothing numinous about it. Its gods are\nfake. It has no business transgressing the bounds of the universe.\n\nThe Ship is quite different.\n\nYou can't judge SF on the basis of science. But you can judge it on the\nbasis of its own internal mythology and history.\n\n\n hjartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-01T00:50:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually the moon would, I believe, hold an atmosphere for quite a long\ntime, but not for geological timespans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tNo. During the Apollo program, the measured amount of gas surrounding\nthe moon remained fairly constant, despite each landing adding an amount\nof gaseous exhaust equal to the original natural contents. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One simple posibility is that a lot of smaller bodies were dumped upon it,\nincreasing its mass and its budget of volatiles. This offers a way of\nterraforming it at the \"Terran\" level of technology and also of increasing\nits gravity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would require \"adding\" the mass of Mars, at least. Even Mars won't\nkeep an atmosphere over large geological eras, but the time from Apu\nPunchau to Ushas is maybe 100 millenia. \n\nI don't see why it is necessary to limit things to Terran technology.\nThe Hiero-people already meddle heavily in Briatic affairs, and stepping\nup the moon's gravity seems like small potatoes next to Father Inire's\ntime and dimension defying gardens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are correct that this sort of thing is often glossed over, but the\nWhorl\nis a STL generation starship and is not at the \"magical\" level of\ntechnology\nthat, for example, the Ship in UOTNS is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect Jeff is thinking of a space warp that was already there, either\nnaturally or created by someone like the Hierodules, which the _Whorl_\npassed through without anyone's knowledge (at least in the Cargo). This\nstrikes me as a lot to conclude on very slim evidence, since the physics\nis very hard to swallow and I don't remember anything like it anywhere\nelse in the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tFather Inire's gardens\n\tthe various magic mirrors\n\tThe Ship\n\tThe Atrium of Time\n\tMaster Ash's house\n\tHildegrin's wrestling match\n\tSeverian discovering his own ancient tomb\n\tthe pool in Yesod\n\tSeverian whispering in his own ear" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's been previously discussed that Lune hasn't sufficient\ngravity to retain an atmosphere; given that gravity manipulation\nis featured discretely in Severian's time, it's possible that\nLune's gravity was increased during the age of wonders\nto keep the air held down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With light-bending space warps and gravity control, you could make a case\nfor anything you want: that Green is the other side of Blue, that the\nBluvian fauna's doubled members (stop me now!) are an effect of double\nrefraction by space warps in the atmosphere, that the whole thing was\nreally written by Charles Kinbote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "please stop! :)\n\nI'm trying to keep to extrapolations from what's in the books, and what\nscience would have been available to Wolfe as reader of SF at the time\nhe turned in _Shadow_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Science fiction is myth-making, not rationality.\n\nThe Whorl is a BDO, a human-made thing, a Generation Starship like the one\nin \"Orphans Of the Sky\", with nothing numinous about it. Its gods are\nfake. It has no business transgressing the bounds of the universe.\n\nThe Ship is quite different.\n\nYou can't judge SF on the basis of science. But you can judge it on the\nbasis of its own internal mythology and history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heinlein's \"Orphans\" is set in a morally indifferent universe and its\nwonders appeal to the authority of science to justify suspension of\ndisbelief. The Sun books are set in a universe the under the continuous\nsupervision of a moral God, and science is merely a justification for\nbad guys to have evil wonders to compete with the good guys' righteous\nresources. \n\nNow I won't argue that what Wolfe chooses to call SF is myth making, and\nin fact I am judging it on its internal standards, since it incorporates\nastronaut mythology of which _Planet Of The Apes_ is a part. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ben Hutchison [Intamission]", "address": "ben.hutchison at intamission.com" }, "date": "2002-03-01T11:04:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" \nTo: \nSent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 11:20 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's been previously discussed that Lune hasn't sufficient\ngravity to retain an atmosphere; given that gravity manipulation\nis featured discretely in Severian's time, it's possible that\nLune's gravity was increased during the age of wonders\nto keep the air held down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually the moon would, I believe, hold an atmosphere for quite a long\ntime, but not for geological timespans.\n\nOne simple posibility is that a lot of smaller bodies were dumped upon it,\nincreasing its mass and its budget of volatiles. This offers a way of\nterraforming it at the \"Terran\" level of technology and also of increasing\nits gravity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding is that a strong panetary magnetic field, as earth has,\nprotects the atmosphere from the erosion caused by solar wind by deflecting\nincoming solar particles. This is a greater determinant of the presence of\natmosphere than a planet's mass. I suspect the moon could retain an\natmosphere too if a magnetic envelope could somehow be induced around it.\n\nGradual losses from the moon's future atmosphere might be replaced by gas\nextraction from moonrock; rich in oxides, though Im unsure if it contains\nenough carbon or nitrogen.\n\nBen" } ] } ] }