Subject: (urth) For Jerry- a response

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:42:14 +0000

Jerry, The quote you bring up keeps emphasizing how old and ancient the world 
around the red star is.  The distance is one of time.  The present tense 
refers to the transtemporal nature of Silk's gift (and Severian's - a thousand 
ages in his sight are like an evening gone).  God is outside of time.  The 
distance for him is no more real than one of space.  The ancient and old 
images imply that it is from a long, long time ago.  The distance is real 
because the universe has moved so much since then.  It was a long way away in 
space and time, but Silk can travel there because he moves through time, like 
the song of the mother is a song of time, as he claims that the only way to go 
back in time is through dreams, as he claims that his travels are dreams, etc.
 That's the best I can do.
Marc Aramini

--

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:17:39 +0000

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, maa32 wrote:

> because the universe has moved so much since then.  

The universe has moved, but it's not moving faster than light, which it
would have to in order to be able to see the old red sun in the sky of
Blue. 

I think the only way you can reconcile this detail with the idea that Blue
is Urth is to say that Silk/Horn was mistaken when he tried to point out
the Red Sun of Urth, that he simply didn't know he was going back in time
rather than to a different solar system.  (And note that at the time
Silk/Horn points out the Red Sun in the sky, he's saying all sorts of odd
things to try to get Juganu to take him to Urth -- he goes on for several
paragraphs about all the women who are waiting, of how grateful the women
prisoners of the Matchin Tower would be to someone coming to rescue them,
etc.)

However, I think the better explanation is that Silk/Horn is right, and
that the Urth solar system is far away and not the same system as
Blue/Green.

-Rostrum

--

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:18:23 +0000

Chiming in - 

Marc, while I find a lot of attraction in your theory that 
Blue/Green is a much older Ushas/Lune (particularly the implicit
identity of the Mother and Scylla-on-Urth), it just isn't plausible 
for a largish variety of reasons. 

Probably the most significant of these, for me, is that if we take 
the more-or-less canonical set of assumptions about the voyage of 
the _Whorl_ (discussed in some detail in the archives by Mantis and 
others), the timelines are just too _neat_ to drop: but there are 
also the questions of Greenish gravity (despite the tower-climbing 
scene, I believe that lunar-type gravity would warrant some pretty
direct observation by a character coming from urth-type gravity),
of the apparent visibility of Urth's red sun in the Bluvian sky, of
the doubled body parts of Bluvian life forms*, etc., etc.

-----
* but not Greenish life forms? I don't recall enough description
  of other Greenish beasties, but it seems pretty clear that the
  inhumi, at least, are four-limbed. Though ... h'mmm. Is it at
  any point stated clearly that the inhumi were equally successful
  at masquerading as Neighbors?
-----

Anyway, Marc, I think most of your other hypotheses about tBotSS 
work just as well (or as poorly; I'm still sceptical-but-
interested, with the observation that there aren't very many 
overall models of this Book on display as yet) without trying to 
force identity of Blue with Urth, Green with Lune. And, in the end,
it _does_ feel forced: which is the problem. In general, when you 
have a "good" model of one of Wolfe's texts, it doesn't feel forced.

--

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:30:36 +0000

> From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>

> would have to in order to be able to see the old red sun in the sky of

	If the Whorl traveled through a region of space that curved back upon
itself, then it's reasonable that the old Sun would be visible back
along the way they came. There's no particular reason for this to be
impossible based on the speed of light, as the BOTNS glosses over many
such concerns to start with. 

> From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <ddanehy at siebel.com>

> the doubled body parts of Bluvian life forms*, etc., etc.

It's been previously discussed that Lune hasn't sufficient gravity to
retain an atmosphere; given that gravity manipulation is featured
discretely in Severian's time, it's possible that Lune's gravity was
increased during the age of wonders to keep the air held down. There is
also the possibility that the Whorl's gravity was intentionally set
lower than Urth's.

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:20:41 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Wilson" <jwilson at io.com>
> If the Whorl traveled through a region of space that curved back
> along the way they came.

This does not feel right.

You are correct that this sort of thing is often glossed over, but the Whorl
is a STL generation starship and is not at the "magical" level of technology
that, for example, the Ship in UOTNS is.

> It's been previously discussed that Lune hasn't sufficient
> gravity to retain an atmosphere; given that gravity manipulation
> is featured discretely in Severian's time, it's possible that
> Lune's gravity was increased during the age of wonders
> to keep the air held down.

Actually the moon would, I believe, hold an atmosphere for quite a long
time, but not for geological timespans.

One simple posibility is that a lot of smaller bodies were dumped upon it,
increasing its mass and its budget of volatiles.   This offers a way of
terraforming it at the "Terran" level of technology and also of increasing
its gravity.

    hartshorn

--

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:42:02 +0000

> that, for example, the Ship in UOTNS is.

I suspect Jeff is thinking of a space warp that was already there, either
naturally or created by someone like the Hierodules, which the _Whorl_
passed through without anyone's knowledge (at least in the Cargo).  This
strikes me as a lot to conclude on very slim evidence, since the physics
is very hard to swallow and I don't remember anything like it anywhere
else in the books. 

> > to keep the air held down.

With light-bending space warps and gravity control, you could make a case
for anything you want: that Green is the other side of Blue, that the
Bluvian fauna's doubled members (stop me now!) are an effect of double
refraction by space warps in the atmosphere, that the whole thing was
really written by Charles Kinbote.
...

Jerry Friedman

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:34:00 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
> for anything you want:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.   But the fundamental thing about SF is how it feels.

Science fiction is myth-making, not rationality.

The Whorl is a BDO, a human-made thing, a Generation Starship like the one
in "Orphans Of the Sky", with nothing numinous about it.   Its gods are
fake.   It has no business transgressing the bounds of the universe.

The Ship is quite different.

You can't judge SF on the basis of science.   But you can judge it on the
basis of its own internal mythology and history.

    hjartshorn

--

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:50:41 +0000

> From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>

> time, but not for geological timespans.

	No. During the Apollo program, the measured amount of gas surrounding
the moon remained fairly constant, despite each landing adding an amount
of gaseous exhaust equal to the original natural contents. 
 
> terraforming it at the "Terran" level of technology and also of increasing

That would require "adding" the mass of Mars, at least. Even Mars won't
keep an atmosphere over large geological eras, but the time from Apu
Punchau to Ushas is maybe 100 millenia. 

I don't see why it is necessary to limit things to Terran technology.
The Hiero-people already meddle heavily in Briatic affairs, and stepping
up the moon's gravity seems like small potatoes next to Father Inire's
time and dimension defying gardens.
 
> From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>

> is very hard to swallow and I don't remember anything like it anywhere

	Father Inire's gardens
	the various magic mirrors
	The Ship
	The Atrium of Time
	Master Ash's house
	Hildegrin's wrestling match
	Severian discovering his own ancient tomb
	the pool in Yesod
	Severian whispering in his own ear
 
> really written by Charles Kinbote.

please stop! :)

I'm trying to keep to extrapolations from what's in the books, and what
science would have been available to Wolfe as reader of SF at the time
he turned in _Shadow_.

> From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>

> basis of its own internal mythology and history.

Heinlein's "Orphans" is set in a morally indifferent universe and its
wonders appeal to the authority of science to justify suspension of
disbelief. The Sun books are set in a universe the under the continuous
supervision of a moral God, and science is merely a justification for
bad guys to have evil wonders to compete with the good guys' righteous
resources. 

Now I won't argue that what Wolfe chooses to call SF is myth making, and
in fact I am judging it on its internal standards, since it incorporates
astronaut mythology of which _Planet Of The Apes_ is a part. 

--

---

From: Ben Hutchison [Intamission] <ben.hutchison at intamission.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 11:04:29 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) For Jerry- a response
> terraforming it at the "Terran" level of technology and also of increasing

My understanding is that a strong panetary magnetic field, as earth has,
protects the atmosphere from the erosion caused by solar wind by deflecting
incoming solar particles. This is a greater determinant of the presence of
atmosphere than a planet's mass. I suspect the moon could retain an
atmosphere too if a magnetic envelope could somehow be induced around it.

Gradual losses from the moon's future atmosphere might be replaced by gas
extraction from moonrock; rich in oxides, though Im unsure if it contains
enough carbon or nitrogen.

Ben

--