{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3003", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3003, "subject": "The irrigation of Lune", "messages": 23, "voices": 9, "first": "2002-03-01T07:43:37+00:00", "last": "2002-03-11T23:07:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-01T07:43:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \n\nNo. During the Apollo program, the measured amount of gas surrounding\nthe moon remained fairly constant, despite each landing adding an amount\nof gaseous exhaust equal to the original natural contents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will chase this up :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would require \"adding\" the mass of Mars, at least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see why it is necessary to limit things to Terran technology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"That was before they got it irrigated\" as old Rudesind says. The word\n\"irrigated\" was what made me think of dumping volatiles on the surface -\ngiant comets from the Oort and so forth. \"Irrigated\" does not sound like\ntranscendent Hierodule tech. It sounds like a lot of ice being dumped on\nthe Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Father Inire's gardens\nthe various magic mirrors\nThe Ship\nThe Atrium of Time\nMaster Ash's house\nHildegrin's wrestling match\nSeverian discovering his own ancient tomb\nthe pool in Yesod\nSeverian whispering in his own ear" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But - and this is crucial - none of these works are of planetforming scale.\n\n\nThe equation of BOTNS is\n\n planetforming works of the Hierodules = redemptive hand of god\n\nThis is after all explicit in the very title of the sequence!\n\n\nLune has no **spiritual** weight.\n\nThat is why the Hierdoules can not be involved in the irrigation of Lune.\n\nBesides, we know that it was Typhon who wounded the sun from his speech\nwith Severian. The conclusion is that human attempts to influence the\nsolar system are behind it. **Human** tech put the black hole in the\ncenter of the sun. To terraform Lune is small peas beside that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heinlein's \"Orphans\" is set in a morally indifferent universe and its\nwonders appeal to the authority of science to justify suspension of\ndisbelief." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and the Whorl is a metatextual reference to it as well as to the\ncountless O'Neill's that have graced SF. It is a ship built by Men and\ndoes not fly through Time or past the walls of the Universe.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Timothy Reilly", "address": "treilly at ozemail.com.au" }, "date": "2002-03-02T03:16:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson wrote:\nBesides, we know that it was Typhon who wounded the sun from his speech\nwith Severian. The conclusion is that human attempts to influence the\nsolar system are behind it. **Human** tech put the black hole in the\ncenter of the sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure? What part of which speech do you have in mind?\n\nTim" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-02T06:37:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No. During the Apollo program, the measured amount of gas surrounding\nthe moon remained fairly constant, despite each landing adding an amount\nof gaseous exhaust equal to the original natural contents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will chase this up :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That would require \"adding\" the mass of Mars, at least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it makes it pointless to build the moon to the size of Mars when you\nalready have a Mars-sized body, namely Mars. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see why it is necessary to limit things to Terran technology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"That was before they got it irrigated\" as old Rudesind says. The word\n\"irrigated\" was what made me think of dumping volatiles on the surface -\ngiant comets from the Oort and so forth. \"Irrigated\" does not sound like\ntranscendent Hierodule tech. It sounds like a lot of ice being dumped on\nthe Moon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nRudesind and others of his society can't be expected to be cognizant of\nwhat else besides mere irrigation would be required to cover the moon\nwith forest. After whatever other modifications it would take to keep an\natmosphere in place, yes it would have to be irrigated. And while it\ndoes not sound like something of ineffable, recall that Father Inire's\nGardens allow a confluence of Gyoll and the Lake of Birds; for all we\nknow he diverted a tributary of the Brook Madregot to water Green/Lune.\n\nIn addition, this sort of sweeping up and piling of asteroids would\nrelieve the metal scarcity problem supposedly caused by all the ships\nand ordnance leaving Urth, never or seldom to return. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Father Inire's gardens\nthe various magic mirrors\nThe Ship\nThe Atrium of Time\nMaster Ash's house\nHildegrin's wrestling match\nSeverian discovering his own ancient tomb\nthe pool in Yesod\nSeverian whispering in his own ear" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But - and this is crucial - none of these works are of planetforming scale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Yesod planet most certainly is; it's either an artificial planet or\none so heavily modified it might as well be. It also seems to have\nnormal gravity despite its interior being machinery with access spaces,\nrather than solid rock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lune has no **spiritual** weight.\n\nThat is why the Hierdoules can not be involved in the irrigation of Lune." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't follow you. They seem to be involved in numerous other\nunspiritual undertakings, like trafficking with Baldanders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Besides, we know that it was Typhon who wounded the sun from his speech\nwith Severian. The conclusion is that human attempts to influence the\nsolar system are behind it. **Human** tech put the black hole in the\ncenter of the sun. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "perhaps, he may have had help from Dark Lords / Great Beasts / whatever. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To terraform Lune is small peas beside that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So which is it? Small peas, or beyond the scope of anything I could\nlist? The alteration of gravity could be easy for the hierodules, and\nthere's already an example of an area of the Palace that has zero\ngravity permanently or at least at will, and almost every appearance of\nhierodules and the other ilk of Yesod features some kind of bending of\nthe rules of time and space. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heinlein's \"Orphans\" is set in a morally indifferent universe and its\nwonders appeal to the authority of science to justify suspension of\ndisbelief." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, and the Whorl is a metatextual reference to it as well as to the\ncountless O'Neill's that have graced SF. It is a ship built by Men and\ndoes not fly through Time or past the walls of the Universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you not read _Planet Of The Apes_ or seen the original film? \nThe Whorl doesn't need any special qualities to travel through a warp in\nspace and time any more than anyone visiting the Botanical Gardens do.\nIf the servants of the Increate put it there, it's there for the Whorl\nto go through, with no more trouble than the old man's raft had reaching\nthe location just right for Severian to fall in and find Dorcas. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-02T08:59:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nSo it makes it pointless to build the moon to the size of Mars when you\nalready have a Mars-sized body, namely Mars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My position is this.\n\nIn TBOTNS there are three levels of technology:\n\n1) the \"medaeval\" or blacksmith level, to which most of the world has been\nrelegated by resource poverty:\n\n2) the \"terran\" level, which humanity still has mastery of, but only the\nrich have the resources to use\n\n3) the \"galactic\" level, which has always been beyond human control, nd\ncorresponds to \"magic\" in a thematic sense.\n\nThis seems pretty sound, because Wolfe actually spells it out.\n\n\n\nThe problem is that we can not adduce constraints from \"real science\" in\nWolfe's work even at level 2). Wolfe is very cavalier about such things.\n\n\n\nNow, the Whorl is a product, perhaps the ultimate product, of level 2).\nThe Ship is a product of level 3).\n\nTherefore the Whorl will not be doing the numinous things the Ship does. I\ncan't *prove* it does not move through time, but there is no real hint of it\ndoing so.\n\n\n\nIs Lune a product of level 2) or 3)?\n\nMy argument is that it \"feels\" like a product of level 2).\n\nI freely admit that this is based on the way the characters in TBOTNS talk\nand sspeak about it, not on abstract considerations.\n\nThere is no awe addressed to Lune, nothing holy or remarkable about it. It\nis just a place.\n\n\"Port of Lune\".\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-02T09:04:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Timothy Reilly\" \n\nAre you sure? What part of which speech do you have in mind?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking. \"My astronomers\nhad told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . . They were\nwrong . . . \" clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what\nwas going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-03T04:17:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My position is this.\n\nIn TBOTNS there are three levels of technology:\n\n1) the \"medaeval\" or blacksmith level, to which most of the world has been\nrelegated by resource poverty:\n\n2) the \"terran\" level, which humanity still has mastery of, but only the\nrich have the resources to use\n\n3) the \"galactic\" level, which has always been beyond human control, nd\ncorresponds to \"magic\" in a thematic sense.\n\nThis seems pretty sound, because Wolfe actually spells it out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you so far," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem is that we can not adduce constraints from \"real science\" in\nWolfe's work even at level 2). Wolfe is very cavalier about such things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No kidding. Some times he is even *gasp* mistaken!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, the Whorl is a product, perhaps the ultimate product, of level 2).\nThe Ship is a product of level 3).\n\nTherefore the Whorl will not be doing the numinous things the Ship does. I\ncan't *prove* it does not move through time, but there is no real hint of it\ndoing so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Whorl doesn't need to do anything \"numinous,\" only to be subject to\nthe plans of the Increate. I am sure you will agree that it is, like\neverything else in Briah? Can that plan not include a space warp that\nreturns the Whorl unknowingly to Urth? \n\nI have already gone over various other occurences of this theme in Sun\nboooks. This sort of unknowing return, on the part of the traveler or\nthose who remained, appears in the Bible, Greek myth, classic SF, and\neven other Wolfe books. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is Lune a product of level 2) or 3)?\n\nMy argument is that it \"feels\" like a product of level 2).\n\nI freely admit that this is based on the way the characters in TBOTNS talk\nand sspeak about it, not on abstract considerations.\n\nThere is no awe addressed to Lune, nothing holy or remarkable about it. It\nis just a place.\n\n\"Port of Lune\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would the work of the hierodules necessarily have to be revered,\nwhen they themselves are referred to in such glowing terms as\n\"cacogens\"? Urthlings could just lump it in with Skuld and Verthandi as\nworlds they see in the sky, but not necessarily terribly important. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-03T19:46:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \n\"Port of Lune\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would the work of the hierodules necessarily have to be revered,\nwhen they themselves are referred to in such glowing terms as\n\"cacogens\"? Urthlings could just lump it in with Skuld and Verthandi as\nworlds they see in the sky, but not necessarily terribly important." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. A fair point, but I still disagree.\n\nI have said all I justly can. I think we must now accept that our\ninterpretation of the text differs, and leave it there.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Timothy Reilly", "address": "treilly at ozemail.com.au" }, "date": "2002-03-04T04:03:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Timothy Reilly\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you sure? What part of which speech do you have in mind?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking. \"My astronomers\nhad told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . . They were\nwrong . . . \" clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what\nwas going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No - this certainly doesn't follow logically. Astronomers today think they\nknow what's happening at the sun's core, but can hardly be said to have\ncontributed to it! I've always read the words as naturally meaning only\nwhat they say, that Typhon's advisers were aware that the sun's activity was\ndeclining, but underestimated how fast. Nor on my reading is there any\npossible motivation for Typhon putting a black hole at the sun's core - it\nhardly helps him. He's an evil tyrant, but shows no inclination to destroy\nall human kind (himself included)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-03-04T07:09:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Timothy Reilly\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you sure? What part of which speech do you have in mind?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking. \"My astronomers\nhad told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . . They were\nwrong . . . \" clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what\nwas going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No - this certainly doesn't follow logically. Astronomers today think they\nknow what's happening at the sun's core, but can hardly be said to have\ncontributed to it! I've always read the words as naturally meaning only\nwhat they say, that Typhon's advisers were aware that the sun's activity\nwas\ndeclining, but underestimated how fast. Nor on my reading is there any\npossible motivation for Typhon putting a black hole at the sun's core - it\nhardly helps him. He's an evil tyrant, but shows no inclination to destroy\nall human kind (himself included)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Not only is there no apparent motivation; I doubt that Typhon had\nthe ability. Technology on Urth in Typhon's day was considerably more\nadvanced than in Severian's, but was but a shadow of what mean-old,\nnasty-old Man possessed in its heyday of galaxy hopping and creating new\nlife forms. The sun's decline led to crop failures, riots, and revolt.\nThings were so bad that Typhon's cronies left the planet, taking all\navailable transport, and left Typhon besieged on his mountain.\n\nWho is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot point,\nit seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the Urth\nCycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his\npresumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing. If\nagents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else\nentirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the weight\nof evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-04T13:02:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThe bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking. \"My astronomers\nhad told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . . They were\nwrong . . . \" clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what\nwas going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read this to mean that Typhon's astronomers hadn't even detected the\nblack hole's effects, that they were telling him about the sun's normal\nlife-cycle as a star, until it was too late." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot point,\nit seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the Urth\nCycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his\npresumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing. If\nagents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else\nentirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the weight\nof evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've left out the third option, which I think is the correct one, that\nthe wounding of the sun was caused by extraterrestrial enemies of Man,\nAbaia and Erebus, who swim between the stars (and whose sister, I believe,\nis the Mother on Blue).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-04T13:07:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \ndeclining, but underestimated how fast. Nor on my reading is there any\npossible motivation for Typhon putting a black hole at the sun's core -\nit\nhardly helps him. He's an evil tyrant, but shows no inclination to\ndestroy\nall human kind (himself included)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A point here: I have a background in astrophyics and cosmology, and I know\nthat it would be quite \"easy\" to create a black hole and drop it into the\nsun. It is not too far beyond our own technology today. I mean only a\nthousand years or so. The *theory* is simple.\n\nOn the other hand, cancelling out the black hole with a White Fountain is a\nmillion times harder. I have no idea how we would go about it even in\nprinciple.\n\nI have always assumed that the sun was wounded by Typhon.\n\nThe idea that it was in fact done by Abia and her cohorts is an interesting\none:\n\nPerhaps Typhon had it done *in alliance with* her? The idea of Typhon\nallying with these forces for revenge, or simply as a sort of Sampson\nstrategy, is compelling.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-03-04T21:59:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rostrum quoted me and wrote:\nWho is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot\npoint,\nit seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the\nUrth\nCycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his\npresumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "agents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else\nentirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the\nweight\nof evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've left out the third option, which I think is the correct one, that\nthe wounding of the sun was caused by extraterrestrial enemies of Man,\nAbaia and Erebus, who swim between the stars (and whose sister, I believe,\nis the Mother on Blue)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And hartshorn wrote:\nI have always assumed that the sun was wounded by Typhon.\n\nThe idea that it was in fact done by Abia and her cohorts is an interesting\none:\n\nPerhaps Typhon had it done *in alliance with* her? The idea of Typhon\nallying with these forces for revenge, or simply as a sort of Sampson\nstrategy, is compelling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Revenge for what? Typhon didn't want to pull the Temple down; he wanted to\ncreate a new empire with Urth, the ancestral home of mankind, as its\nsymbolic center. He would have been cutting his own throat to ally himself\nwith any party bent on the future of ice.\n\n\"I have told you that I was autarch on many worlds. I shall be autarch\nagain, and this time on many more. This world, the most ancient of all, I\nmade my capital. That was an error, because I lingered too long when\ndisaster came. By the time I would have escaped, escape was no longer open\nto me . . .\"\n\nThe Red Sun wasn't part of his plans.\n\nAs for Abaia & Co. being responsible for the black hole: if they were, then\nit was only a symbolic gesture. Man had long ago dispersed across the\ngalaxies. Whatever happened to Urth, a used-up backwater planet, would have\nno impact on the species, was of no real consequence for Man, at least in\nthis iteration of the universe. Urth's only importance, even for the\nIncreate, was symbolic. If Abaia & Co. were responsible for the wounding of\nthe sun, then they were unwitting agents of the Increate, who were doing His\nbidding, whether they would or no. The entire purpose, in Wolfe's universe,\nof the wounding of the sun, of Sev's sham trial, and the coming of the New\nSun, was to satisfy the whims of the Increate. As Tzadkiel told Sev:\n\n\"Or if you wish to put it another way, you have already passed your testing,\nwhich was an examination of the future you will create. You are the New Sun.\nYou will be returned to your Urth, and the White Fountain will go with you.\nThe death agonies of the world you know will be offered to the Increate. And\nthey will be indescribable--continents will flounder, as has been said. Much\nthat is beautiful will perish, and with it most of your race; but your home\nwill be reborn.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-05T00:43:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAs for Abaia & Co. being responsible for the black hole: if they were, then\nit was only a symbolic gesture. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet they continue to act against the Autarchy and to try to prevent\nSeverian from bringing the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Abaia & Co. were responsible for the wounding of\nthe sun, then they were unwitting agents of the Increate, who were doing His\nbidding, whether they would or no. The entire purpose, in Wolfe's universe,\nof the wounding of the sun, of Sev's sham trial, and the coming of the New\nSun, was to satisfy the whims of the Increate. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here we get into deep philosophical/theological waters. This is like\nsaying that the Romans didn't really crucify Jesus, or if they did they\nwere the unwitting agents of God, who were doing his will whether they\nwould or no. The entire purpose, on this reading, of the crucifixion and\nthe resurrection was to satisfy the whims of God.\n\nAnd there are certainly people who read the New Testament that way.\n\nBut there is also the reading that the crucifixion was an evil act\ncommitted by the Romans et. al. for which they bear guilt and\nresponsibility, yet God twisted and turned that evil thing and brought\ngood out of it. I submit this is probably the closer to the sense Wolfe\nintends, that the dying sun is a bad thing, caused by the evil of Abaia\net. al., and probably also in some sense the result of humanity's own sins\ncoming home to roost, yet the Increate takes this and turns it to his own\npurposes.\n\nHow much all this ultimately boils down to satisfying the whims of the\nIncreate depends on one's views of divine foreknowledge, omnipotence,\npredestination, determinism, free will, etc.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-05T18:47:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nTo: \n\"I have told you that I was autarch on many worlds. I shall be autarch\nagain, and this time on many more. This world, the most ancient of all, I\nmade my capital. That was an error, because I lingered too long when\ndisaster came. By the time I would have escaped, escape was no longer open\nto me . . .\"\n\nThe Red Sun wasn't part of his plans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As gracefully as possible, I yeild to you & the majority of the list on this\npoint. You have convinced me that Typhon did not kill the Sun.\n\n harshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-06T11:17:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 02/03/2002 06:37:36 Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind and others of his society can't be expected to be cognizant of\nwhat else besides mere irrigation would be required to cover the moon\nwith forest. After whatever other modifications it would take to keep an\natmosphere in place, yes it would have to be irrigated. And while it\ndoes not sound like something of ineffable, recall that Father Inire's\nGardens allow a confluence of Gyoll and the Lake of Birds; for all we\nknow he diverted a tributary of the Brook Madregot to water Green/Lune.\n\nIn addition, this sort of sweeping up and piling of asteroids would\nrelieve the metal scarcity problem supposedly caused by all the ships\nand ordnance leaving Urth, never or seldom to return." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Out of curiosity does anyone have near to hand an estimate of the mass of\nthe solar system, what proportion of that would be in the small bodies and\nwhat proportion of those metals?\n\nFollowing the thought logically, rather than with literary intent, mining\n/ collecting metals in near space would seem an obvious move once space\nflight was available. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that this\nhad been done.\n\nHence my curiosity about quantity because that and usage rates might\nsuggest timescales.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-06T11:54:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 04/03/2002 07:09:45 Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nWho is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot\npoint,\nit seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the\nUrth\nCycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his\npresumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "agents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else\nentirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the\nweight\nof evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why \"Retribution\"?\n\nThe Increate's servants seem to be looking for - or even forcing - some\nsort of redemption in Man. If they are responsible for the wounding of the\nsun (a view I favour) I'd be more inclined to see it as a stimulus or goad\npushing towards that goal.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-06T10:48:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \n\nIn addition, this sort of sweeping up and piling of asteroids would\nrelieve the metal scarcity problem supposedly caused by all the ships\nand ordnance leaving Urth, never or seldom to return." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Out of curiosity does anyone have near to hand an estimate of the mass of\nthe solar system, what proportion of that would be in the small bodies and\nwhat proportion of those metals?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The total mass in the asteroid belt is less than that of the Moon. Of the\norder of 10% is metal mostly iron/nickel IIRC, the rest is silica slag.\n\nIn the Oort Cloud (beyind Neptune) there could be almost any amount\n\n\"Shortage of metal\" is not in fact very probable.\n\n\n\nMetal is not used up except in tiny quantities by atomic reactions and\nstuff, and the very small amounts that leave in spaceships.\n\nSo it is really a matter of the energy to gather it together and refine it.\n\nBut I remember some interviews with Wolfe where he says that copper and even\niron are \"running out\" . . . . either he has the wrong idea or he is\ntaking large artistic license.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-06T13:14:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/03/2002 10:48:40 Andy Robertson wrote:\nMetal is not used up except in tiny quantities by atomic reactions and\nstuff, and the very small amounts that leave in spaceships.\n\nSo it is really a matter of the energy to gather it together and refine\nit.\n\nBut I remember some interviews with Wolfe where he says that copper and\neven\niron are \"running out\" . . . . either he has the wrong idea or he is\ntaking large artistic license." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the word \"Accessible\" should be in there? The Commonwealth of\nSeverian's time has access to space flight but only as provided for them,\nnot to do with as they will. The the long inhabitation having exhausted\nthe metals exctracted as ores \"mining\" becomes the recovery and recycling\noperation of Saltus.\n\nUrth cannot be litterally exhausted of metals because part of the promise\nof the New Sun is a renewal and we see that achieved bu the upheavals that\n\"drown continents\" etc.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-06T16:40:51+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nIf agents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something\nelse entirely. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Matthew responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why \"Retribution\"?\n\nThe Increate's servants seem to be looking for - or even forcing -\nsome sort of redemption in Man. If they are responsible for the\nwounding of the sun (a view I favour) I'd be more inclined to see\nit as a stimulus or goad pushing towards that goal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I may be wrong, but I seem to recall a passage -- and it's about time\nfor my periodic rereading of tBotNS (which will probably wind up being\na period rereading of the whole Sun metaseries) -- in which Severian\nreports being told that the wounding of the Sun is part of a larger\nplan to _isolate_ humanity until we are matured or redeemed or repentant\nor, well, whatever, enough to be allowed to go out and play with the\nrest of the galaxy. Does anyone else recall this, or am I dreaming it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-03-07T06:49:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk \nWhy \"Retribution\"?\n\nThe Increate's servants seem to be looking for - or even forcing - some\nsort of redemption in Man. If they are responsible for the wounding of the\nsun (a view I favour) I'd be more inclined to see it as a stimulus or goad\npushing towards that goal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely. You have just restated my case. Redemption and retribution come\nto the same thing in this case. As I quoted before:\n\n\"The death agonies of the world you know will be offered to the Increate.\"\n\nIf that isn't retribution, I'll shoot my dictionary! As to \"why\" the\nIncreate should regard the deaths of millions, many, many generations\nremoved from the presumed offences of their ancestors as desirable, only the\nIncreate knows.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-07T10:37:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/03/2002 06:49:06 Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nFrom: matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk \nWhy \"Retribution\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Increate's servants seem to be looking for - or even forcing - some\nsort of redemption in Man. If they are responsible for the wounding of\nthe\nsun (a view I favour) I'd be more inclined to see it as a stimulus or\ngoad\npushing towards that goal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely. You have just restated my case. Redemption and retribution\ncome\nto the same thing in this case. As I quoted before:\n\n\"The death agonies of the world you know will be offered to the\nIncreate.\"\n\nIf that isn't retribution, I'll shoot my dictionary! As to \"why\" the\nIncreate should regard the deaths of millions, many, many generations\nremoved from the presumed offences of their ancestors as desirable, only\nthe\nIncreate knows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's why I didn't like the word: the punitive aspect was\nstrongest in my mind and my dictionary emphasises 'deserved' which I\ncannot see.\n\nAs for redemption, four definitions are near sysnonyms for retribution\nwhile the fifth perculilarly Christian one - salvation from sin through\n[Jesus'] sacrifice - runs counter: those saved don't pay, the payment has\nbeen made...\n\nI'm not making any sort of case here, just registering a distinct unease\nwith the apparent concequences.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Strickland", "address": "sstrickland at satx.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-03-10T06:59:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the scene with Rudesind, the only one in BOTNS in which the irrigation of\nLune is discussed?\n\nI'd always assumed--I'll admit without much thought on the subject-- that\nthe discussion of the \"irrigation of Lune\" in the early part of TSOTT was\nsort of an oblique reference to the sun's weakening. Since the light of the\nmoon is a reflection of the sun's light, the pale green light of the moon\nwould have given way, I suppose, to a darker green, as the sun began to\nweaken. This historical fact, that over time the moon changed from pale\ngreen to darker green, became, in the folklore of a civilization whose\nscience was declining, the afforestation of the moon, which of course would\nrequire water to make it work.\n\nThis also seems to me to be consistent with Mr. Wolfe's interest in folklore\nas being derivative of some truth or half-truth (in this case, that the moon\nhad darkened required explanation).\n\nOf course, it is also possible that through some advanced technology the\nmoon had actually been made into a forest. Are there other references in\nTBOTNS to the irrigation of Lune, or its forests, that might shed more light\non whether this is merely a matter of folklore arising from the weakening\nsun, vs. a fact of science?\n\nSteve Strickland\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 5:17 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune\n\n\n\nOn 02/03/2002 06:37:36 Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind and others of his society can't be expected to be cognizant of\nwhat else besides mere irrigation would be required to cover the moon\nwith forest. After whatever other modifications it would take to keep an\natmosphere in place, yes it would have to be irrigated. And while it\ndoes not sound like something of ineffable, recall that Father Inire's\nGardens allow a confluence of Gyoll and the Lake of Birds; for all we\nknow he diverted a tributary of the Brook Madregot to water Green/Lune.\n\nIn addition, this sort of sweeping up and piling of asteroids would\nrelieve the metal scarcity problem supposedly caused by all the ships\nand ordnance leaving Urth, never or seldom to return." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Out of curiosity does anyone have near to hand an estimate of the mass of\nthe solar system, what proportion of that would be in the small bodies and\nwhat proportion of those metals?\n\nFollowing the thought logically, rather than with literary intent, mining\n/ collecting metals in near space would seem an obvious move once space\nflight was available. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that this\nhad been done.\n\nHence my curiosity about quantity because that and usage rates might\nsuggest timescales.\n\nMatthew\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-11T23:07:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Steve Strickland wrote:\nIs the scene with Rudesind, the only one in BOTNS in which the\nirrigation of\nLune is discussed?\n\nI'd always assumed--I'll admit without much thought on the subject--\nthat\nthe discussion of the \"irrigation of Lune\" in the early part of TSOTT\nwas\nsort of an oblique reference to the sun's weakening." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good heavens, people keep coming up with things I never would have\nimagined! I may be too trusting to read Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since the light of the\nmoon is a reflection of the sun's light, the pale green light of the\nmoon\nwould have given way, I suppose, to a darker green, as the sun began to\nweaken." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think moonlight is green, or not in any sense that would make it\ndarker green if the sun were dimmer. The rocks are pretty much light\nrock-colored, I believe.\n\nAnyway, if we assume the forests are real, I think there's a good question\nof how green it would look in the light of Old Sun (reminds me of Leigh\nBrackett). Of course, Severian is used to seeing things by red light, but\nHorn and Hoof are not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This historical fact, that over time the moon changed from pale\ngreen to darker green, became, in the folklore of a civilization whose\nscience was declining, the afforestation of the moon, which of course\nwould\nrequire water to make it work.\n\nThis also seems to me to be consistent with Mr. Wolfe's interest in\nfolklore\nas being derivative of some truth or half-truth (in this case, that the\nmoon\nhad darkened required explanation).\n\nOf course, it is also possible that through some advanced technology the\nmoon had actually been made into a forest. Are there other references\nin\nTBOTNS to the irrigation of Lune, or its forests, that might shed more\nlight\non whether this is merely a matter of folklore arising from the\nweakening\nsun, vs. a fact of science?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nSeverian refers once or twice to \"the forests of Lune\", if I remember\ncorrectly, but that only tells us that he believes in them.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }