Subject: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:43:37 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Wilson" <jwilson at io.com>
>
> No. During the Apollo program, the measured amount of gas surrounding
> the moon remained fairly constant, despite each landing adding an amount
> of gaseous exhaust equal to the original natural contents.

I will chase this up :-)

> That would require "adding" the mass of Mars, at least.

So?

> I don't see why it is necessary to limit things to Terran technology.

"That was before they got it irrigated" as old Rudesind says.     The word
"irrigated" was what made me think of dumping volatiles on the surface -
giant comets from the Oort and so forth.    "Irrigated" does not sound like
transcendent Hierodule tech.   It sounds like a lot of ice being dumped on
the Moon.

>
> Father Inire's gardens
> the various magic mirrors
> The Ship
> The Atrium of Time
> Master Ash's house
> Hildegrin's wrestling match
> Severian discovering his own ancient tomb
> the pool in Yesod
> Severian whispering in his own ear

But - and this is crucial - none of these works are of planetforming scale.

The equation of BOTNS is

    planetforming works of the Hierodules = redemptive hand of god

This is after all explicit in the very title of the sequence!

Lune has no **spiritual** weight.

That is why the Hierdoules can not be involved in the irrigation of Lune.

Besides, we know that it was Typhon who wounded the sun  from his speech
with Severian.   The conclusion is that human attempts to influence the
solar system are behind it.   **Human** tech put the black hole in the
center of the sun.   To terraform Lune is small peas beside that.

>
> Heinlein's "Orphans" is set in a morally indifferent universe and its
> wonders appeal to the authority of science to justify suspension of
> disbelief.

Yes, and the Whorl is a metatextual reference to it as well as to the
countless O'Neill's that have graced SF.   It is a ship built by Men and
does not fly through Time or past the walls of the Universe.

    hartshorn

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From: Timothy Reilly <treilly at ozemail.com.au>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 03:16:55 +0000

Andy Robertson wrote:
> center of the sun.

Are you sure?  What part of which speech do you have in mind?

Tim

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:37:36 +0000

> From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>

> > That would require "adding" the mass of Mars, at least.

So it makes it pointless to build the moon to the size of Mars when you
already have a Mars-sized body, namely Mars. 
 
> transcendent Hierodule tech.   It sounds like a lot of ice being dumped on
 
Rudesind and others of his society can't be expected to be cognizant of
what else besides mere irrigation would be required to cover the moon
with forest. After whatever other modifications it would take to keep an
atmosphere in place, yes it would have to be irrigated. And while it
does not sound like something of ineffable, recall that Father Inire's
Gardens allow a confluence of Gyoll and the Lake of Birds; for all we
know he diverted a tributary of the Brook Madregot to water Green/Lune.

In addition, this sort of sweeping up and piling of asteroids would
relieve the metal scarcity problem supposedly caused by all the ships
and ordnance leaving Urth, never or seldom to return. 

> But - and this is crucial - none of these works are of planetforming scale.

The Yesod planet most certainly is; it's either an artificial planet or
one so heavily modified it might as well be. It also seems to have
normal gravity despite its interior being machinery with access spaces,
rather than solid rock.

> That is why the Hierdoules can not be involved in the irrigation of Lune.

I don't follow you. They seem to be involved in numerous other
unspiritual undertakings, like trafficking with Baldanders.
 
> solar system are behind it.   **Human** tech put the black hole in the

perhaps, he may have had help from Dark Lords / Great Beasts / whatever. 

> To terraform Lune is small peas beside that.

So which is it? Small peas, or beyond the scope of anything I could
list? The alteration of gravity could be easy for the hierodules, and
there's already an example of an area of the Palace that has zero
gravity permanently or at least at will, and almost every appearance of
hierodules and the other ilk of Yesod features some kind of bending of
the rules of time and space. 

> does not fly through Time or past the walls of the Universe.

Have you not read _Planet Of The Apes_ or seen the original film? 
The Whorl doesn't need any special qualities to travel through a warp in
space and time any more than anyone visiting the Botanical Gardens do.
If the servants of the Increate put it there, it's there for the Whorl
to go through, with no more trouble than the old man's raft had reaching
the location just right for Severian to fall in and find Dorcas. 

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:59:07 +0000

----- Original Message -----
> already have a Mars-sized body, namely Mars.

My position is this.

In TBOTNS there are three levels of technology:

1) the "medaeval" or blacksmith level, to which most of the world has been
relegated by resource poverty:

2) the "terran" level, which humanity still has mastery of, but only the
rich have the resources to use

3) the "galactic" level, which has always been beyond human control, nd
corresponds to "magic" in a thematic sense.

This seems pretty sound, because Wolfe actually spells it out.

The problem is that we can not adduce constraints from "real science" in
Wolfe's work even at level 2). Wolfe is very cavalier about such things.

Now, the Whorl is a product, perhaps the ultimate product,  of level 2).
The Ship is a product of level 3).

Therefore the Whorl will not be doing the numinous things the Ship does.  I
can't *prove* it does not move through time, but there is no real hint of it
doing so.

Is Lune a product of level 2) or 3)?

My argument is that it "feels" like a product of level 2).

I freely admit that this is based on the way the characters  in TBOTNS talk
and sspeak about it, not on abstract considerations.

There is no awe addressed to Lune, nothing holy or remarkable about it.   It
is just a place.

"Port of Lune".

    hartshorn

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:04:55 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Reilly" <treilly at ozemail.com.au>
> Are you sure?  What part of which speech do you have in mind?

The bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking.   "My astronomers
had told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . .   They were
wrong . . . "   clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what
was going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it.

--

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 04:17:51 +0000

> This seems pretty sound, because Wolfe actually spells it out.

I'm with you so far,
 
> Wolfe's work even at level 2). Wolfe is very cavalier about such things.

No kidding. Some times he is even *gasp* mistaken!
 
> can't *prove* it does not move through time, but there is no real hint of it

The Whorl doesn't need to do anything "numinous," only to be subject to
the plans of the Increate. I am sure you will agree that it is, like
everything else in Briah? Can that plan not include a space warp that
returns the Whorl unknowingly to Urth? 

I have already gone over various other occurences of this theme in Sun
boooks.  This sort of unknowing return, on the part of the traveler or
those who remained, appears in the Bible, Greek myth, classic SF, and
even other Wolfe books. 
 
> There is no awe addressed to Lune, nothing holy or remarkable about it.   It

Why would the work of the hierodules necessarily have to be revered,
when they themselves are referred to in such glowing terms as
"cacogens"? Urthlings could just lump it in with Skuld and Verthandi as
worlds they see in the sky, but not necessarily terribly important. 

--

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:46:03 +0000

----- Original Message -----
> worlds they see in the sky, but not necessarily terribly important.

Hmmm.   A fair point, but I still disagree.

I have said all I justly can.   I think we must now accept that our
interpretation of the text differs, and leave it there.

    hartshorn

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From: Timothy Reilly <treilly at ozemail.com.au>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 04:03:34 +0000

> was going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it.

No - this certainly doesn't follow logically.  Astronomers today think they
know what's happening at the sun's core, but can hardly be said to have
contributed to it!  I've always read the words as naturally meaning only
what they say, that Typhon's advisers were aware that the sun's activity was
declining, but underestimated how fast.  Nor on my reading is there any
possible motivation for Typhon putting a black hole at the sun's core - it
hardly helps him.  He's an evil tyrant, but shows no inclination to destroy
all human kind (himself included).

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 07:09:45 +0000

>all human kind (himself included).

I agree. Not only is there no apparent motivation; I doubt that Typhon had
the ability. Technology on Urth in Typhon's day was considerably more
advanced than in Severian's, but was but a shadow of what mean-old,
nasty-old Man possessed in its heyday of galaxy hopping and creating new
life forms. The sun's decline led to crop failures, riots, and revolt.
Things were so bad that Typhon's cronies left the planet, taking all
available transport, and left Typhon besieged on his mountain.

Who is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot point,
it seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the Urth
Cycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his
presumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing. If
agents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else
entirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the weight
of evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view.

-Roy

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:02:34 +0000

> >> was going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it.

I read this to mean that Typhon's astronomers hadn't even detected the
black hole's effects, that they were telling him about the sun's normal
life-cycle as a star, until it was too late.

> of evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view.

You've left out the third option, which I think is the correct one, that
the wounding of the sun was caused by extraterrestrial enemies of Man,
Abaia and Erebus, who swim between the stars (and whose sister, I believe,
is the Mother on Blue).

-Rostrum

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:07:02 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>

> >all human kind (himself included).

A point here: I have a background in astrophyics and cosmology, and I know
that it would be quite "easy" to create a black hole and drop it into the
sun.    It is not too far beyond our own technology today.   I mean only a
thousand years or so.   The *theory* is simple.

On the other hand, cancelling out the black hole with a White Fountain is a
million times harder.   I have no idea how we would go about it even in
principle.

I have always assumed that the sun was wounded by Typhon.

The idea that it was in fact done by Abia and her cohorts is an interesting
one:

Perhaps Typhon had it done *in alliance with* her?   The idea of Typhon
allying with these forces for revenge, or simply as a sort of Sampson
strategy, is compelling.

    hartshorn

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 21:59:03 +0000

>allying with these forces for revenge, or simply as a sort of Sampson

Revenge for what? Typhon didn't want to pull the Temple down; he wanted to
create a new empire with Urth, the ancestral home of mankind, as its
symbolic center. He would have been cutting his own throat to ally himself
with any party bent on the future of ice.

"I have told you that I was autarch on many worlds. I shall be autarch
again, and this time on many more. This world, the most ancient of all, I
made my capital. That was an error, because I lingered too long when
disaster came. By the time I would have escaped, escape was no longer open
to me . . ."

The Red Sun wasn't part of his plans.

As for Abaia & Co. being responsible for the black hole: if they were, then
it was only a symbolic gesture. Man had long ago dispersed across the
galaxies. Whatever happened to Urth, a used-up backwater planet, would have
no impact on the species, was of no real consequence for Man, at least in
this iteration of the universe. Urth's only importance, even for the
Increate, was symbolic. If Abaia & Co. were responsible for the wounding of
the sun, then they were unwitting agents of the Increate, who were doing His
bidding, whether they would or no. The entire purpose, in Wolfe's universe,
of the wounding of the sun, of Sev's sham trial, and the coming of the New
Sun, was to satisfy the whims of the Increate. As Tzadkiel told Sev:

"Or if you wish to put it another way, you have already passed your testing,
which was an examination of the future you will create. You are the New Sun.
You will be returned to your Urth, and the White Fountain will go with you.
The death agonies of the world you know will be offered to the Increate. And
they will be indescribable--continents will flounder, as has been said. Much
that is beautiful will perish, and with it most of your race; but your home
will be reborn."

-Roy

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:43:33 +0000

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

> it was only a symbolic gesture. 

Yet they continue to act against the Autarchy and to try to prevent
Severian from bringing the New Sun.

> If Abaia & Co. were responsible for the wounding of
> Sun, was to satisfy the whims of the Increate. 

Here we get into deep philosophical/theological waters.  This is like
saying that the Romans didn't really crucify Jesus, or if they did they
were the unwitting agents of God, who were doing his will whether they
would or no.  The entire purpose, on this reading, of the crucifixion and
the resurrection was to satisfy the whims of God.

And there are certainly people who read the New Testament that way.

But there is also the reading that the crucifixion was an evil act
committed by the Romans et. al. for which they bear guilt and
responsibility, yet God twisted and turned that evil thing and brought
good out of it.  I submit this is probably the closer to the sense Wolfe
intends, that the dying sun is a bad thing, caused by the evil of Abaia
et. al., and probably also in some sense the result of humanity's own sins
coming home to roost, yet the Increate takes this and turns it to his own
purposes.

How much all this ultimately boils down to satisfying the whims of the
Increate depends on one's views of divine foreknowledge, omnipotence,
predestination, determinism, free will, etc.

-Rostrum

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 18:47:00 +0000

----- Original Message -----
To: <urth at urth.net>

> The Red Sun wasn't part of his plans.

As gracefully as possible, I yeild to you & the majority of the list on this
point.  You have convinced me that Typhon did not kill the Sun.

    harshorn

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:17:19 +0000

>and ordnance leaving Urth, never or seldom to return.

Out of curiosity does anyone have near to hand an estimate of the mass of
the solar system, what proportion of that would be in the small bodies and
what proportion of those metals?

Following the thought logically, rather than with literary intent, mining
/ collecting metals in near space would seem an obvious move once space
flight was available.  It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that this
had been done.

Hence my curiosity about quantity because that and usage rates might
suggest timescales.

Matthew

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:54:04 +0000

>of evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view.

Why "Retribution"?

The Increate's servants seem to be looking for - or even forcing - some
sort of redemption in Man. If they are responsible for the wounding of the
sun (a view I favour) I'd be more inclined to see it as a stimulus or goad
pushing towards that goal.

Matthew

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:48:40 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
> what proportion of those metals?

The total mass in the asteroid belt is less than that of the Moon.    Of the
order of 10% is metal mostly iron/nickel  IIRC, the rest is silica slag.

In the Oort Cloud (beyind Neptune) there could be almost any amount

"Shortage of metal" is not in fact very probable.

Metal is not used up except in tiny quantities by atomic reactions and
stuff, and the very small amounts that leave in spaceships.

So it is really a matter of the energy to gather it together and refine it.

But I remember some interviews with Wolfe where he says that copper and even
iron are "running out" . . . .    either he has the wrong idea or he is
taking large artistic license.

    hartshorn

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 13:14:37 +0000

>taking large artistic license.

Perhaps the word "Accessible" should be in there?  The Commonwealth of
Severian's time has access to space flight but only as provided for them,
not to do with as they will.  The the long inhabitation having exhausted
the metals exctracted as ores "mining" becomes the recovery and recycling
operation of Saltus.

Urth cannot be litterally exhausted of metals because part of the promise
of the New Sun is a renewal and we see that achieved bu the upheavals that
"drown continents" etc.

Matthew

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:40:51 +0000

Roy wrote:

> If agents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something
> else entirely. 

And Matthew responded:

> Why "Retribution"?
> 
> The Increate's servants seem to be looking for - or even forcing -
> some sort of redemption in Man. If they are responsible for the
> wounding of the sun (a view I favour) I'd be more inclined to see
> it as a stimulus or goad pushing towards that goal.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall a passage -- and it's about time
for my periodic rereading of tBotNS (which will probably wind up being
a period rereading of the whole Sun metaseries) -- in which Severian
reports being told that the wounding of the Sun is part of a larger
plan to _isolate_ humanity until we are matured or redeemed or repentant
or, well, whatever, enough to be allowed to go out and play with the
rest of the galaxy. Does anyone else recall this, or am I dreaming it?

--

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:49:06 +0000

>pushing towards that goal.

Precisely. You have just restated my case. Redemption and retribution come
to the same thing in this case. As I quoted before:

"The death agonies of the world you know will be offered to the Increate."

If that isn't retribution, I'll shoot my dictionary! As to "why" the
Increate should regard the deaths of millions, many, many generations
removed from the presumed offences of their ancestors as desirable, only the
Increate knows.

-Roy

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:37:16 +0000

On 07/03/2002 06:49:06 Roy C. Lackey wrote:

>From: matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
>>Why "Retribution"?
>>

I think that's why I didn't like the word: the punitive aspect was
strongest in my mind and my dictionary emphasises 'deserved' which I
cannot see.

As for redemption, four definitions are near sysnonyms for retribution
while the fifth perculilarly Christian one - salvation from sin through
[Jesus'] sacrifice - runs counter: those saved don't pay, the payment has
been made...

I'm not making any sort of case here, just registering a distinct unease
with the apparent concequences.

Matthew

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From: Steve Strickland <sstrickland at satx.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:59:39 +0000

Is the scene with Rudesind, the only one in BOTNS in which the irrigation of
Lune is discussed?

I'd always assumed--I'll admit without much thought on the subject-- that
the discussion of the "irrigation of Lune" in the early part of TSOTT was
sort of an oblique reference to the sun's weakening.  Since the light of the
moon is a reflection of the sun's light, the pale green light of the moon
would have given way, I suppose, to a darker green, as the sun began to
weaken.  This historical fact, that over time the moon changed from pale
green to darker green, became, in the folklore of a civilization whose
science was declining, the afforestation of the moon, which of course would
require water to make it work.

This also seems to me to be consistent with Mr. Wolfe's interest in folklore
as being derivative of some truth or half-truth (in this case, that the moon
had darkened required explanation).

Of course, it is also possible that through some advanced technology the
moon had actually been made into a forest.  Are there other references in
TBOTNS to the irrigation of Lune, or its forests, that might shed more light
on whether this is merely a matter of folklore arising from the weakening
sun, vs. a fact of science?

Steve Strickland

----- Original Message -----
From: <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune

--

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:07:54 +0000

--- Steve Strickland <SSTRICKLAND at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> sort of an oblique reference to the sun's weakening.

Good heavens, people keep coming up with things I never would have
imagined!  I may be too trusting to read Wolfe.

> Since the light of the
> weaken.

I don't think moonlight is green, or not in any sense that would make it
darker green if the sun were dimmer.  The rocks are pretty much light
rock-colored, I believe.

Anyway, if we assume the forests are real, I think there's a good question
of how green it would look in the light of Old Sun (reminds me of Leigh
Brackett).  Of course, Severian is used to seeing things by red light, but
Horn and Hoof are not.

> This historical fact, that over time the moon changed from pale
...

Severian refers once or twice to "the forests of Lune", if I remember
correctly, but that only tells us that he believes in them.

Jerry Friedman

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