{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3006", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3006, "subject": "More on \"Hour of Trust\"", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-03-02T03:14:15+00:00", "last": "2002-03-02T06:39:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-03-02T03:14:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Further thoughts, taking off from my last post:\n\nIf it is indeed the case that the rebels' sole \"pitch\" to prospective\nsuicide bombers is broadcasting footage of those who have already committed\nthemselves (and the \"emcee\" in the broadcast we see attempts no other form\nof persuasion), then American society, not just the government, is in\nterminal decay: there must be hundreds, maybe thousands, of people ready to\nthrow their lives away, who only need to be shown an example to trigger them\noff. It's all the more likely, then, that Clio is not in contact with the\nrebels, but was inspired in the same way by earlier broadcasts. Nor need\nshe share any beliefs with the rebels, since the suicide bombers we hear\ndon't seem to have any beliefs in common.\n\nPushing the argument further, we can surmise that the reason we hear nothing\nabout the rebels' ideology or program is that they don't have one, just a\ngeneral desire to change things and a countercultural milieu. The rebels'\ntroops are the same sort of people as the suicide bombers, just a little\nless aimless. On this reading, then, the rebels are not a new society being\nborn, but a symptom of the old society's decay: in mantis's analogy, they're\nless like the barbarians than like the Roman mob.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-02T04:44:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) More on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nIf it is indeed the case that the rebels' sole \"pitch\" to prospective\nsuicide bombers is broadcasting footage of those who have already committed\nthemselves (and the \"emcee\" in the broadcast we see attempts no other form\nof persuasion), then American society, not just the government, is in\nterminal decay: there must be hundreds, maybe thousands, of people ready to\nthrow their lives away, who only need to be shown an example to trigger them\noff. It's all the more likely, then, that Clio is not in contact with the\nrebels, but was inspired in the same way by earlier broadcasts. Nor need\nshe share any beliefs with the rebels, since the suicide bombers we hear\ndon't seem to have any beliefs in common.\n\nPushing the argument further, we can surmise that the reason we hear nothing\nabout the rebels' ideology or program is that they don't have one, just a\ngeneral desire to change things and a countercultural milieu. The rebels'\ntroops are the same sort of people as the suicide bombers, just a little\nless aimless. On this reading, then, the rebels are not a new society being\nborn, but a symptom of the old society's decay: in mantis's analogy, they're\nless like the barbarians than like the Roman mob." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Technically the rebels cannot possibly be \"barbarians\" in the\nclassical sense (external non-members), they must be the alienated\nproletariate. So I apologize for that--there are no barbarians in the\nstory. Their action is therefore a \"civil war\" in the classical sense\n(class warfare) rather than in the regional conflict of US history sense,\nor perhaps like the slave revolts in classical times. The cult of ken has\nan \"alien\" feel to it, but this again is supposition--in any case,\nbarbarisms (immitation of the alien) are often seen as a trait of decay in\nboth the ruling class (modes of dress, hair styles, new religions) as well\nas the proles (most famously new religions that offer what the rulers are\nno longer providing), but again, barbarisms do not make proles into\nbarbarians.\n\n\"General desire to change things\" I would ammend to \"change things through\nviolent revolution.\" Bullets, not ballots.\n\nBut yes, in the past when I've said the rebels were using the immolators, I\nmeant it in just the way you have presented it now: that is, I never meant\nthat the immolators were indoctrinated in any way, shape, or form; rather,\nI meant the immolator behavior is a wave that is being channeled by the\nrebels for their own purposes. (Maybe as if the castrators of Russia had\nbeen somehow used by the Bolsheviks to further the revolution? No, make\nthat the Mensheviks? Constitutional Democrats?)\n\nIn any case, it seems to me that immolation tv (iMTV) viewers will in broad\nterms either be shocked/demoralized or intrigued. Those who are intrigued\nwill either want to be rebels and film those people (join the new movement\nof the living), or they will want to be immolators themselves (join the new\nmovement of the suicidal).\n\nRe: the rebels and their cause. I'm not so sure. Looking at history, it\nseems like the (Western) Roman Empire fell to \"barbarism and religion,\" but\neven the religion side is cloudy: the victorious barbarians had Arianism,\nwhich in turn was part of a struggle which Catholocism eventually won.\nThat is: it wasn't like the barbarians rolled in on this year, and then\neveryone was Christian (Catholic) the next year (or even the next century).\nThe Christian martyrs being fed to the lions were not generally Arians, to\nmy knowledge; the barbarians who sacked Rome and took over Western Europe\nwere Arians; from a distance both groups are Christian, but the \"smoothing\nout\" of difference took some time and bloodshed.\n\nMy problems with this reading: if Clio has just switched, either today or\nsome other day, then I think the need to nail down what it was and when it\nhappened would be essential. Without this, I cannot see how it is\nsupported except in the General Nihilism way.\n\n(Her coded speech, which I take to be as much a character statement as we\ncan get from her, seems much more pro-rebel than nihilist. Her action is\nundeniably that of an immolator, and as such it forms a cryptic link\nbetween the heretofore separate groups of immolators and rebels.)\n\n(If she had said anything before flaming, like \"This is for Flint\nMichigan!\" then many questions would be resolved--maybe not!) :)\n\nThen there is the tricky bit about the immolation device. Even granting\nGeneral Nihilism, if a novice can whip up the immolation device on her own\nand use it as easily as deodorant, well that would be an important story\ndetail, too.\n\n(Hey Adam, read \"The Blue Mouse\" in CASTLE OF DAYS. Come on, please!)\n\nEven after all this discussion on the one short story, I guess I should\nclaim to be both stoned and watching tv (with reference to the Wolfe\ninterview), since otherwise I must be retarded. \n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n56 Lexicons left until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-03-02T06:39:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) More on \"Hour of Trust\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 8:44 PM -0800 3/1/02, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nEven after all this discussion on the one short story, I guess I should\nclaim to be both stoned and watching tv (with reference to the Wolfe\ninterview), since otherwise I must be retarded. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am glad someone else mentioned this passage from the interview. I \nfound it to be a rather petulant and unnecessary outburst and quite \nunfair to all of us who are just trying to figure out what's going on \nin some of Wolfe's stories.\n\n(I should go on to say that Mr. Wolfe is certainly entitled to the \noccasional petulant outburst, especially at his age, and also that I \nhave a lot of nerve criticizing him for this, since, if you look at \nthe archives of this forum, you will see that I have posted more than \nmy share of petulant outbursts here.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William (Lotta Nerve) Ansley\n\n-- " } ] } ] }