{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3012", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3012, "subject": "Irritating Loonies and Planet of the Grapes", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-03-04T22:59:28+00:00", "last": "2002-03-11T03:07:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-04T22:59:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Irritating Loonies and Planet of the Grapes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson, come on down! \n\nYou wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind and others of his society can't be expected to be cognizant of\nwhat else besides mere irrigation would be required to cover the moon\nwith forest. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not at all sure that this is true. (Well, it might be true of \nRudesind specifically, but I'm speaking of \"others of his society\"),\nfor (at least) two reasons:\n\nFirst, while there is obviously a serioius loss of technology among the \ncommonality of Urth-humans, resulting in the \"medieval\"-level technology, \nit's not at all clear (at least to me) that this comes from ignorance; \nit seems equally likely that it comes from lack of resources (which we \nknow to be a serious problem in the time of the Autarchs, viz., \"ages\" \ndefined as \"the depletion of some resource,\" etc.), possibly/probably \nincluding the resource of energy (solar power isn't much of an option \nhere...). But things Severian and others say lead me to think that they\nhave _not_ fallen into ignorance; while an early comment (a blurb?) \ndescribed the society of tBotNS as \"having forgotten what spaceships\nare for,\" it's quite clear that he _does_ know what the Towers of the\nCitadel are and can do (or could if they weren't fallen into disrepair).\nThis is a society where people don't see the Sun rise, they see the\nhorizon fall away from it. It seems fairly clear that they have more\nscientific and technical knowledge than they can actually make use of.\n\nSecond, while Rudesind himself probably isn't a techie, \"his society\"\nincludes the population of the House Absolute - in other words, the\nparts of Urth society still more-or-less at the Urth level of technology. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you not read _Planet Of The Apes_ or seen the original film? \nThe Whorl doesn't need any special qualities to travel through a warp in\nspace and time any more than anyone visiting the Botanical Gardens do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is absolutely true - but I should hasten to add that passing \nthrough a spacetime warp (whatever _that_ is) and winding up back at \nthe Ushas-Lune system years later, doesn't do a thing for \nthe Red Sun being visible in the Bluvian sky. And, no, I'm sorry,\nthat one isn't going to go away because of spacewarps, curved space,\nor any other explanation short of \"the author waved his magic wand\nand made it happen\" - which is the act of an incompetent author, _not_\nGene Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-05T07:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Irritating Loonies and Planet of the Grapes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "urth at urth.net wrote:\n\nSubject: (urth) Diameter of the Old Sun\nDate: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:17:51 -0800\nFrom: Michael Andre-Driussi \nReply-To: urth at urth.net\nTo: urth at urth.net\n\nAssuming that Lune Diameter = 2160 miles, and Orbit = 150,000 miles . . .\n\nAnd using formula S = 57.3 * D/R\n\nShows us that the angular diameter (i.e., size in sky from Urth) of Lune is\n0.82 degrees (compared with Moon from Earth as 0.52 degrees--bigger, but\nnot quite doubled in size).\n\nSupposing that the Old Sun is swollen (Supposition 1); further supposing\nthat Lune can eclipse the Old Sun (Supposition 2); this implies that the\nangular diameter of Old Sun is around 0.82 degrees (compared to Sun's 0.53\ndegrees). What is the diameter of Old Sun?\n\n0.82 = 57.3 * x/92.960 million miles\n76.2272 = 57.3 * x\n1.3303 = x = 1.33 million miles\n\nAccording to these figurings, Old Sun has a diameter of 1.33 million miles\n(2.14 million km), which translates into 0.014 AU.\n\nIf the above is correct, then there is little hazard of the planet we call\nMercury being engulfed by the swollen star, since Mercury orbits at 0.38 AU.\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nNow with UPDATES!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\n--\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune\nDate: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:03:34 +1100\nFrom: \"Timothy Reilly\" \nReply-To: urth at urth.net\nTo: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Timothy Reilly\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you sure? What part of which speech do you have in mind?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking. \"My astronomers\nhad told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . . They were\nwrong . . . \" clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what\nwas going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No - this certainly doesn't follow logically. Astronomers today think they\nknow what's happening at the sun's core, but can hardly be said to have\ncontributed to it! I've always read the words as naturally meaning only\nwhat they say, that Typhon's advisers were aware that the sun's activity was\ndeclining, but underestimated how fast. Nor on my reading is there any\npossible motivation for Typhon putting a black hole at the sun's core - it\nhardly helps him. He's an evil tyrant, but shows no inclination to destroy\nall human kind (himself included).\n\n--\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune\nDate: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:09:45 -0600\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nReply-To: urth at urth.net\nTo: \"urth\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Timothy Reilly\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Are you sure? What part of which speech do you have in mind?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking. \"My astronomers\nhad told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . . They were\nwrong . . . \" clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what\nwas going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No - this certainly doesn't follow logically. Astronomers today think they\nknow what's happening at the sun's core, but can hardly be said to have\ncontributed to it! I've always read the words as naturally meaning only\nwhat they say, that Typhon's advisers were aware that the sun's activity\nwas\ndeclining, but underestimated how fast. Nor on my reading is there any\npossible motivation for Typhon putting a black hole at the sun's core - it\nhardly helps him. He's an evil tyrant, but shows no inclination to destroy\nall human kind (himself included)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Not only is there no apparent motivation; I doubt that Typhon had\nthe ability. Technology on Urth in Typhon's day was considerably more\nadvanced than in Severian's, but was but a shadow of what mean-old,\nnasty-old Man possessed in its heyday of galaxy hopping and creating new\nlife forms. The sun's decline led to crop failures, riots, and revolt.\nThings were so bad that Typhon's cronies left the planet, taking all\navailable transport, and left Typhon besieged on his mountain.\n\nWho is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot point,\nit seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the Urth\nCycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his\npresumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing. If\nagents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else\nentirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the weight\nof evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view.\n\n-Roy\n\n--\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune\nDate: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:02:34 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: Michael Straight \nReply-To: urth at urth.net\nTo: urth \n\nOn Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The bit in SOTL where Typhon and Severian are speaking. \"My astronomers\nhad told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly . . They were\nwrong . . . \" clearly implies that the astronomers and Typhon knew what\nwas going on at the sun's core and therefore had a part in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read this to mean that Typhon's astronomers hadn't even detected the\nblack hole's effects, that they were telling him about the sun's normal\nlife-cycle as a star, until it was too late." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot point,\nit seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the Urth\nCycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his\npresumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing. If\nagents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else\nentirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the weight\nof evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've left out the third option, which I think is the correct one, that\nthe wounding of the sun was caused by extraterrestrial enemies of Man,\nAbaia and Erebus, who swim between the stars (and whose sister, I believe,\nis the Mother on Blue).\n\n-Rostrum\n\n--\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune\nDate: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:07:02 -0000\nFrom: \"Andy Robertson\" \nReply-To: urth at urth.net\nTo: \n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "declining, but underestimated how fast. Nor on my reading is there any\npossible motivation for Typhon putting a black hole at the sun's core -\nit\nhardly helps him. He's an evil tyrant, but shows no inclination to\ndestroy\nall human kind (himself included)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A point here: I have a background in astrophyics and cosmology, and I know\nthat it would be quite \"easy\" to create a black hole and drop it into the\nsun. It is not too far beyond our own technology today. I mean only a\nthousand years or so. The *theory* is simple.\n\nOn the other hand, cancelling out the black hole with a White Fountain is a\nmillion times harder. I have no idea how we would go about it even in\nprinciple.\n\nI have always assumed that the sun was wounded by Typhon.\n\nThe idea that it was in fact done by Abia and her cohorts is an interesting\none:\n\nPerhaps Typhon had it done *in alliance with* her? The idea of Typhon\nallying with these forces for revenge, or simply as a sort of Sampson\nstrategy, is compelling.\n\n hartshorn\n\n--\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: The irrigation of Lune\nDate: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:59:03 -0600\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nReply-To: urth at urth.net\nTo: \n\nRostrum quoted me and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who is responsible for the black hole in the sun is an important plot\npoint,\nit seems to me, because it bears directly on the ultimate goal of the\nUrth\nCycle; the pretext for, and the coming of, the New Sun. If Man, in his\npresumptive arrogance, caused the wounding of the sun, that is one thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If\nagents of the Increate caused it, as retribution, that is something else\nentirely. I have always adhered to the latter view, and I think the\nweight\nof evidence from the fifth volume of the series supports that view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've left out the third option, which I think is the correct one, that\nthe wounding of the sun was caused by extraterrestrial enemies of Man,\nAbaia and Erebus, who swim between the stars (and whose sister, I believe,\nis the Mother on Blue)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And hartshorn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have always assumed that the sun was wounded by Typhon.\n\nThe idea that it was in fact done by Abia and her cohorts is an interesting\none:\n\nPerhaps Typhon had it done *in alliance with* her? The idea of Typhon\nallying with these forces for revenge, or simply as a sort of Sampson\nstrategy, is compelling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Revenge for what? Typhon didn't want to pull the Temple down; he wanted to\ncreate a new empire with Urth, the ancestral home of mankind, as its\nsymbolic center. He would have been cutting his own throat to ally himself\nwith any party bent on the future of ice.\n\n\"I have told you that I was autarch on many worlds. I shall be autarch\nagain, and this time on many more. This world, the most ancient of all, I\nmade my capital. That was an error, because I lingered too long when\ndisaster came. By the time I would have escaped, escape was no longer open\nto me . . .\"\n\nThe Red Sun wasn't part of his plans.\n\nAs for Abaia & Co. being responsible for the black hole: if they were, then\nit was only a symbolic gesture. Man had long ago dispersed across the\ngalaxies. Whatever happened to Urth, a used-up backwater planet, would have\nno impact on the species, was of no real consequence for Man, at least in\nthis iteration of the universe. Urth's only importance, even for the\nIncreate, was symbolic. If Abaia & Co. were responsible for the wounding of\nthe sun, then they were unwitting agents of the Increate, who were doing His\nbidding, whether they would or no. The entire purpose, in Wolfe's universe,\nof the wounding of the sun, of Sev's sham trial, and the coming of the New\nSun, was to satisfy the whims of the Increate. As Tzadkiel told Sev:\n\n\"Or if you wish to put it another way, you have already passed your testing,\nwhich was an examination of the future you will create. You are the New Sun.\nYou will be returned to your Urth, and the White Fountain will go with you.\nThe death agonies of the world you know will be offered to the Increate. And\nthey will be indescribable--continents will flounder, as has been said. Much\nthat is beautiful will perish, and with it most of your race; but your home\nwill be reborn.\"\n\n-Roy\n\n--\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson, come on down!\n\nYou wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind and others of his society can't be expected to be cognizant of\nwhat else besides mere irrigation would be required to cover the moon\nwith forest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not at all sure that this is true. (Well, it might be true of\nRudesind specifically, but I'm speaking of \"others of his society\"),\nfor (at least) two reasons:\n\nFirst, while there is obviously a serioius loss of technology among the\ncommonality of Urth-humans, resulting in the \"medieval\"-level technology,\nit's not at all clear (at least to me) that this comes from ignorance;\nit seems equally likely that it comes from lack of resources (which we\nknow to be a serious problem in the time of the Autarchs, viz., \"ages\"\ndefined as \"the depletion of some resource,\" etc.), possibly/probably\nincluding the resource of energy (solar power isn't much of an option\nhere...). But things Severian and others say lead me to think that they\nhave _not_ fallen into ignorance; while an early comment (a blurb?)\ndescribed the society of tBotNS as \"having forgotten what spaceships\nare for,\" it's quite clear that he _does_ know what the Towers of the\nCitadel are and can do (or could if they weren't fallen into disrepair).\nThis is a society where people don't see the Sun rise, they see the\nhorizon fall away from it. It seems fairly clear that they have more\nscientific and technical knowledge than they can actually make use of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They may not be completely ignorant, but it is plain that they parrot a\nlot of the lost teaching without really understanding it; they have some\ngeneral idea, but the details are long lost. They know a kind of\nlightning makes some machines go, but not how to construct a circuit.\nThey know that the Urth rotates, but not that it revolves around the\nsun. They know that some statues are actually some sort of exalted\ntaxidermy, but nothing else about it. It's no stretch to presume that\nirrigation is a similar summarization of terraforming." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you not read _Planet Of The Apes_ or seen the original film?\nThe Whorl doesn't need any special qualities to travel through a warp in\nspace and time any more than anyone visiting the Botanical Gardens do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is absolutely true - but I should hasten to add that passing\nthrough a spacetime warp (whatever _that_ is) and winding up back at\nthe Ushas-Lune system years later, doesn't do a thing for" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tnot necessary later, it might be earlier" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Red Sun being visible in the Bluvian sky. And, no, I'm sorry,\nthat one isn't going to go away because of spacewarps, curved space,\nor any other explanation short of \"the author waved his magic wand\nand made it happen\" - which is the act of an incompetent author, _not_\nGene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The curvature of space bends the path of light just as it does the path\nof material objects, so the spacewarp =can= explain the Sun being\nvisible as a distant star from Urth when looking back along the path\nthat the Whorl took. This same effect shows up in URTH with Yesod and\nthe ship, and to a lesser degree with the magic mirrors. This doubling\nof the Sun is no more a mark of incompetence than the doubling of\nBurgundofara, or Severian and Apu Punchau, or the various Tzadkiels are,\nor the bilocation of the various Gardens.\n\nIf there are a few scientific details separating the hierodule's\nspacewarp from what you would expect from a proper closed timelike path\nin spacetime, I can only point to similar technical shortcomings in the\ndescription of the function of the magic mirrors, the lifting principle\nof the flyers, and the White Fountain's white hole nature, among others.\nGW doesn't lets science get in the way of telling a story." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-05T17:20:56+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Irritating Loonies and Planet of the Grapes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hoom. First I should apologize for the Subject line followed \nimmediately by \"Jeff Wilson, come on down!\" It occurred to me only \nafter I hit \"Send\" that, in that context, my pun on \"The Irrigation \nof Lune\" might be construed as an accusation of looniness against \nthe estimable Mr. Wilson. Please understand that I did not intend \nany such thing.\n\nSecond..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "First, while there is obviously a serioius loss of technology among the\ncommonality of Urth-humans, resulting in the \"medieval\"-level\ntechnology,\nit's not at all clear (at least to me) that this comes from ignorance\n[...]\nThis is a society where people don't see the Sun rise, they see the\nhorizon fall away from it. It seems fairly clear that they have more\nscientific and technical knowledge than they can actually make use of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They may not be completely ignorant, but it is plain that they parrot\na lot of the lost teaching without really understanding it; they have\nsome general idea, but the details are long lost. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not at all sure that they are. The impression I have, from the\nexplanations given by the run of characters in the books, is quite\nthe opposite - that the concepts have become so familiar that there\nis no need to surround them with technical terminology. For example..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They know a kind of lightning makes some machines go, but not how\nto construct a circuit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could be two ignorant people talking about electricity; or\nit could be people for whom electricity is simply part of the\nbackground of life. I strongly suspect that a significant number\nof the people on this list would not be able to construct any kind\nof useful electrical circuit.\n\nNor does the use of the word \"lightning\" seem to me a mark of\nignorance, any more than we are ignorant because we refer to this \nforce by a name that implies that our primary source for it is \nrubbing a rod of amber - particularly when you remember that \ntBotNS is a \"translation.\" Wolfe might have feigned the Urthian \nword for electricity to translate as \"amber-force\" (in much the \nway he uses the faux literalisms in the Soldier books) but I\nbelieve that \"lightning\" would be the appropriate common term \nfor electricity in a culture that can't remember not knowing\nabout it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They know that the Urth rotates, but not that it revolves\naround the sun. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure of your reference for this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They know that some statues are actually some sort of exalted\ntaxidermy, but nothing else about it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, this is expecting too much of someone who isn't a specialist\nin the field. Severian has had a very limited education _for his_\nculture, and how he describes things will be affected by that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's no stretch to presume that irrigation is a similar\nsummarization of terraforming." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With that, actually, I am in complete agreement. It appears that\nin arguing with one of your sub-points I have given the impression\nthat I was in disagreement with your primary point. I am not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is absolutely true - but I should hasten to add that passing\nthrough a spacetime warp (whatever _that_ is) and winding up back at\nthe Ushas-Lune system years later, doesn't do a thing for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "not necessary later, it might be earlier" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, so is a negative number. 8*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the Red Sun being visible in the Bluvian sky. And, no, I'm sorry,\nthat one isn't going to go away because of spacewarps, curved space,\nor any other explanation short of \"the author waved his magic wand\nand made it happen\" - which is the act of an incompetent author, \n_not_ Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The curvature of space bends the path of light just as it does the\npath of material objects, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So far so good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "so the spacewarp =can= explain the Sun being visible as a distant\nstar from Urth when looking back along the path that the Whorl took. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if you are considering there to be a stable/permanent warp in\nplace, yes, this could work. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This same effect shows up in URTH with Yesod and the ship, and to a\nlesser degree with the magic mirrors. This doubling of the Sun is no\nmore a mark of incompetence than the doubling of Burgundofara, or\nSeverian and Apu Punchau, or the various Tzadkiels are, or the \nbilocation of the various Gardens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmm. All of these seem to me to be at the Galactic/\"hierodule\" \nlevel of technology. So if you call it the \"hierodule's spacewarp,\"\nas you do, then I can't argue that it wouldn't be possible. However,\nI can question its _plausibility_ on the grounds that I have yet\nto see one shred of evidence that the hierodules are in any way,\nshape, or form involved with the flight of the _Whorl._ What I fear\nI anticipate is that the whole argument comes down to something \nlike this:\n\n\t1. Some of the details of tBotSS can be explained by \n\t hypothesizing that Blue/Green is a far-future or \n\t far-past of Urth/Lune.\n\n\"Well, then, how did the _Whorl_ get back to the Urth/Lune system?\"\n\n\t2. The _Whorl_ can have gotten there only by a spacetime\n\t warp.\n\n\"Problems with this, where did it come from, blablablah.\"\n\n\t3. The type of warp required could have been produced by\n\t the hierodules.\n\n\"Well, what evidence do you have that the hierodules are involved?\n\n\t4. They're back on Urth, so that must be what happened.\n\nWhile this is consistent, it is so only in a self-supporting way.\nI'm looking for a smoking gun, some concrete evidence for the \npresence of the hierodules. The only thing we've seen so far that\n_could_ be such evidence is the apparent apparition of Patera Pike\nto Patera Silk in tBotLS, but Wolfe has (if I am not mistaken) \nspecifically denied that this was a hierodule-created aquastor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there are a few scientific details separating the hierodule's\nspacewarp from what you would expect from a proper closed timelike\npath in spacetime, I can only point to similar technical\nshortcomings in the description of the function of the magic\nmirrors, the lifting principle of the flyers, and the White\nFountain's white hole nature, among others. GW doesn't lets science\nget in the way of telling a story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. But I don't think he lets the story get in the way of (at\nleast) plausible science, either - all of these seem to me to\nfall under the rubric of a technology that can control gravity,\nwhich means a radical shift from any of our current theories of\nhow the universe is put together." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-05T18:58:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Irritating Loonies and Planet of the Grapes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n\n1. Some of the details of tBotSS can be explained by\n hypothesizing that Blue/Green is a far-future or\n far-past of Urth/Lune.\n\n\"Well, then, how did the _Whorl_ get back to the Urth/Lune system?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't really see the problem with this in the first place. The Whorl\ncould simply go and come back. Time dilation would handle the problem\nneatly.\n\nThe more central problem is the statement that the old red sun of Urth could\nbe seen in the night sky.\n\nI think it is time to confess that we can only hold on to the idea that\nBlue/Green are Ushas/Lune by assuming that this statement is erroneous or\nsymbolic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. But I don't think he lets the story get in the way of (at\nleast) plausible science, either - all of these seem to me to\nfall under the rubric of a technology that can control gravity,\nwhich means a radical shift from any of our current theories of\nhow the universe is put together." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A simple question here.\n\nI have the impression that the connection between The Long Sun books and the\nNew Sun books has become closer over time. I feel that , yes,Wolfe\noriginally intended the gods of the Whorl to be a reference to Typhon &c:\nbut that when he started the Long Sun sequence he had no clear idea that he\nwould have Severian turning up again, or that the connection between the\nShort Sun books and the New Sun books would be so intimate.\n\nI wonder if Wolfe has wavered in his own mind as to the nature of\nBlue/Green? If, to be blasphemous, he is not *himself* sure whether these\nare Ushas and Lune?\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-11T03:07:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Irritating Loonies and Planet of the Grapes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hoom. First I should apologize for the Subject line followed \nimmediately by \"Jeff Wilson, come on down!\" It occurred to me only \nafter I hit \"Send\" that, in that context, my pun on \"The Irrigation \nof Lune\" might be construed as an accusation of looniness against \nthe estimable Mr. Wilson. Please understand that I did not intend \nany such thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No offense taken, even had you been sincere; looniness is far from the\nworst or least common accusation I typically receive. :)" } ] } ] }