{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3013", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3013, "subject": "electro-torture of Urth", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-03-05T16:03:09+00:00", "last": "2002-03-11T00:22:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-05T16:03:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) electro-torture of Urth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nThecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to\navoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to avoid\nfurther torment by\nthe in-dwelling demon summoned by the device." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device that\nliterally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather\nthan literal angels), I think that the Rev is meant to be an\nelectroshock device of fiendish refinement that divides the brain by\ndamaging tissue electrically and leaves the non-speaking part greatly\nresentful of the trauma and perhaps envious of the speaking part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In \"Languages of the Dying Sun\" (Damien Broderick's EARTH IS BUT A STAR;\nalso in NYRSF No. 149) I wrote something somewhat similar. I was talking\nabout how Wolfe uses techniques to make common sf notions fantastical\n(using old words for new things), and also making 20th century items very\nstrange (through reversals that employ magical thinking):\n\n\"In other words, the revolutionary is an electro-shock therapy device that\ninstils suicidal depression rather than removing the same. Such a thing\nseems implausible, impossible; since we know that sane people are not made\ninsane by electrical shock. But a moment of magical thinking shows that\nsuicidal depression can be seen as an entity which cannot be destroyed, it\ncan only be sent away; so the twentieth-century machine is the 'sending'\ndevice, and the torturers' machine is the 'receiving' device: mental\nillness has been teleported to the end of history.\"\n\nWell no, it isn't the same in fine detail as what Jeff Wilson wrote, but in\nthe category of\n\"looking-beyond-demons-toward-20th-century-medical-techniques\" it is quite\nclose.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n45 Lexicons left until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-06T12:53:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) electro-torture of Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/03/2002 16:03:09 Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to\navoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to\navoid\nfurther torment by\nthe in-dwelling demon summoned by the device." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device\nthat\nliterally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather\nthan literal angels), I think that the Rev is meant to be an\nelectroshock device of fiendish refinement that divides the brain by\ndamaging tissue electrically and leaves the non-speaking part greatly\nresentful of the trauma and perhaps envious of the speaking part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In \"Languages of the Dying Sun\" (Damien Broderick's EARTH IS BUT A STAR;\nalso in NYRSF No. 149) I wrote something somewhat similar. I was talking\nabout how Wolfe uses techniques to make common sf notions fantastical\n(using old words for new things), and also making 20th century items very\nstrange (through reversals that employ magical thinking):\n\n\"In other words, the revolutionary is an electro-shock therapy device\nthat\ninstils suicidal depression rather than removing the same. Such a thing\nseems implausible, impossible; since we know that sane people are not\nmade\ninsane by electrical shock. But a moment of magical thinking shows that\nsuicidal depression can be seen as an entity which cannot be destroyed,\nit\ncan only be sent away;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a mistaken premis here.\n\nECT can induce changes, physiological and emotional, that themsleves can\nlead to suicidal tendancies. Here I write having observed the effect\nculminating in my cousin's suicide jump from the Rosedale Bridge, Toronto.\n\nThe official conclusion was that the treatment had not been\n\"inappropriate\", the concequence \"unfortunate\".\n\nIt seems plausible to me that very little would be required in the way of\n\"refinement\" to turn ECT into a torment. Perhaps no more than a\ndifference in intent.\n\n\nOne thing struck me about Thecla's reaction: it didn't appear so much a\ndepression as akin to that condition (the medical name for which escapes\nme) where a person is convinced that (typically) a limb doesn't belong to\nthem, indeed is so alien that they require it removed. There are cases\nwhere no remedial therapy is effective and surgical removal of the\noffending limb is the only \"cure\" available. Thecla's involuntary clawing\nat herself, her horror at her own form and existance seem similar, albeit\nperhaps applying to the whole body.\n\n\nFollowing this discussion I was wondering if there was any indication of\npost-the-revolutionary Thecla in Severian after he receives the Alzebo of\nher. Surely \"she\" should have the memory of her excruciation and death\nand with it potentially the same effects. Shouldn't post mortem Thecla be\njust as mad? Yet I don't recall any hint of it. Could death, suicide, be\na redemptive or curative act? That too doesn't seem obviously indicated\nbecause Thecla's memories - particularly those invoked while Severian is\nin the House Absolute - suggest only a slight change of perspective and\npriorities concequent upon her stay with the Seekers of Truth and\nPenitence; not a fundamental alteration.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-06T22:54:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) electro-torture of Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\n\n\n\nOn 05/03/2002 16:03:09 Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to\navoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to\navoid\nfurther torment by\nthe in-dwelling demon summoned by the device." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device\nthat\nliterally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather\nthan literal angels), I think that the Rev is meant to be an\nelectroshock device of fiendish refinement that divides the brain by\ndamaging tissue electrically and leaves the non-speaking part greatly\nresentful of the trauma and perhaps envious of the speaking part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In \"Languages of the Dying Sun\" (Damien Broderick's EARTH IS BUT A\nSTAR;\nalso in NYRSF No. 149) I wrote something somewhat similar. I was\ntalking\nabout how Wolfe uses techniques to make common sf notions fantastical\n(using old words for new things), and also making 20th century items\nvery\nstrange (through reversals that employ magical thinking):\n\n\"In other words, the revolutionary is an electro-shock therapy device\nthat\ninstils suicidal depression rather than removing the same. Such a thing\nseems implausible, impossible; since we know that sane people are not\nmade\ninsane by electrical shock. But a moment of magical thinking shows that\nsuicidal depression can be seen as an entity which cannot be destroyed,\nit\ncan only be sent away;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a mistaken premis here.\n\nECT can induce changes, physiological and emotional, that themsleves can\nlead to suicidal tendancies. Here I write having observed the effect\nculminating in my cousin's suicide jump from the Rosedale Bridge,\nToronto.\n\nThe official conclusion was that the treatment had not been\n\"inappropriate\", the concequence \"unfortunate\".\n\nIt seems plausible to me that very little would be required in the way\nof\n\"refinement\" to turn ECT into a torment. Perhaps no more than a\ndifference in intent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ECT does help some people, including my late grandmother. I suppose in\nthose cases the consequences are fortunate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing struck me about Thecla's reaction: it didn't appear so much a\ndepression as akin to that condition (the medical name for which escapes\nme) where a person is convinced that (typically) a limb doesn't belong\nto\nthem, indeed is so alien that they require it removed. There are cases\nwhere no remedial therapy is effective and surgical removal of the\noffending limb is the only \"cure\" available. Thecla's involuntary\nclawing\nat herself, her horror at her own form and existance seem similar,\nalbeit\nperhaps applying to the whole body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I totally agree that there's no need for magical thinking. The\nrevolutionary literally does just what Master Gurloes (I think) says:\nactivates the victim's death wish, as Freud called it. Mantis's\nspeculation on depressions cured by ECT being transmitted to the\nfuture strikes me as fascinating but unnnecessary.\n\nI somewhat disagree, though, about depression. Self-hatred is often\npart of the suicidal feelings in depression, and it's precisely the\nway Thecla describes the experience. The revolutionary showed her\nherself (not just her body) as her worst enemy.\n\nJudging from this passage and from the Long and especially Short Sun\nbooks, I'd say Wolfe knows something about depression, either from his\nown experience or from reading and conversation.\n\nTaking the descriptions literally, though, doesn't conflict with\npeople's symbolic readings of sin and redemption or political\nrevolution, which I'm grateful for your mentioning--more depth for\nthe BotNS!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Following this discussion I was wondering if there was any indication of\npost-the-revolutionary Thecla in Severian after he receives the Alzebo\nof\nher. Surely \"she\" should have the memory of her excruciation and death\nand with it potentially the same effects. Shouldn't post mortem Thecla\nbe\njust as mad? Yet I don't recall any hint of it. Could death, suicide,\nbe\na redemptive or curative act? That too doesn't seem obviously indicated\nbecause Thecla's memories - particularly those invoked while Severian is\nin the House Absolute - suggest only a slight change of perspective and\npriorities concequent upon her stay with the Seekers of Truth and\nPenitence; not a fundamental alteration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now there's a good point, which hadn't occurred to me!\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-07T00:05:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) electro-torture of Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has been written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ECT can induce changes, physiological and emotional, that themsleves can\nlead to suicidal tendancies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Back up a bit.\n\nThe Revolutionary is:\n\n1) a device which behaves in a manner somewhat recognizable in 20th century\nterms, i.e., like an electro-shock therapy machine (we don't seem to see\nany contention here), yet\n\n2) it functions in a manner decidedly opposite to therapy (again, no\nargument so far).\n\nNow then. Electro-shock therapy is not terribly specialized knowledge; the\nterm and the general outline is part of general knowledge.\n\nPresumably there was a certain amount of testing done before the therapy\nbecame a standard procedure. The success rate must have been relatively\nhigh to warrant it being used at all. There may well be cases of such\ntherapy not working; no doubt--nothing is ever 100%. And that is sad in\ngeneral, and more terrible in specific cases.\n\nNevertheless. The Revolutionary is assumed to perform its task 99% of the\ntime (just as a guillotine or an electric chair functions). If there was an\nidentical device in use in the 20th century, we would know about it in\ngeneral knowledge.\n\nSince such a device is unknown in general knowledge, then we suppose that\nthe author invented it (as Fleming invented diabolical devices for SMERSH,\net cetera).\n\nThe purpose of \"The Languages of the Dying Sun\" essay was to show how\n=language= is being used by the authors in three different \"dying sun\"\nworks. So it would have been out of place for me to investigate the\nfailure rate of a given therapy; the history of the therapy; the peak and\ndecline of the therapy. Yes, another essay could be written on that\ntopic--bring in the frontal lobotomy from oft-mentioned (original motion\npicture) \"Planet of the Apes\" and you've got the start of an sfnal take on\npsychiatric surgery!\n\nIf people now are offended that I wrote such a device seems \"implausible,\nimpossible,\" then I apologize. My intent was not to get into \"how to make\nsuch a device in your garage today\" nor any other hard-science approach: I\nonly wanted to say such a thing did not exist when Wolfe wrote of it; in\nimagining it, I suspected Wolfe used a form of magical thinking (perhaps\nala Kafka or David Lindsay); I specified one example of magical thinking\ninvolving a psychic/psychiatric link between Urth and Earth (odd how often\nthis happens very obviously in far future novels set on Earth).\n\nReaders are free to disagree on every point (as they already have):\n1) it does not exist;\n2) Wolfe created it through magical thinking rather than, say, engineering;\n3) it might teleport 20th century mental illness to the dying world of our\nfuture.\n\nReaders might think that the Revolutionary was not a good choice to make\nfor an example in such an essay. But I brought it along because it was\ndifferent from most of the other cases (contus, khaibit, etc.), and while\npeople may have chatted about it being similar to an electro-shock therapy\nmachine (like allusions to Kafka's \"In the Penal Colony\" with regard to the\nslogan-writing tattoo machine of the torturers), I had not seen it set down\nin an essay anywhere, making it somewhat \"fresh and original\" to the essay\nworld, at least in my experience.\n\nNow I find myself sick of talking about it, so excuse me if I say no more.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2002-03-07T19:25:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) electro-torture of Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew wrote:\nFollowing this discussion I was wondering if there was any\nindication of post-the-revolutionary Thecla in Severian\nafter he receives the Alzebo of her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember correctly, when \"Thecla\" awakens in the\nAntechamber of the House Absolute, her hands rise to claw\nher eyes as she remembers who she is. I think that's also\nwhen she remembers how to get out of the Antechamber.\n\nr." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-11T00:22:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) electro-torture of Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n Michael Andre-Driussi " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to\navoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to avoid\nfurther torment by\nthe in-dwelling demon summoned by the device." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device that\nliterally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather\nthan literal angels), I think that the Rev is meant to be an\nelectroshock device of fiendish refinement that divides the brain by\ndamaging tissue electrically and leaves the non-speaking part greatly\nresentful of the trauma and perhaps envious of the speaking part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In \"Languages of the Dying Sun\" (Damien Broderick's EARTH IS BUT A STAR;\nalso in NYRSF No. 149) I wrote something somewhat similar. I was talking\nabout how Wolfe uses techniques to make common sf notions fantastical\n(using old words for new things), and also making 20th century items very\nstrange (through reversals that employ magical thinking):\n\n\"In other words, the revolutionary is an electro-shock therapy device that\ninstils suicidal depression rather than removing the same. Such a thing\nseems implausible, impossible; since we know that sane people are not made\ninsane by electrical shock. But a moment of magical thinking shows that\nsuicidal depression can be seen as an entity which cannot be destroyed, it\ncan only be sent away; so the twentieth-century machine is the 'sending'\ndevice, and the torturers' machine is the 'receiving' device: mental\nillness has been teleported to the end of history.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A superb inference, Mantiss, and I see no reason it could not have been\npart of GW's thought on the subject. \n\nI rather think that if true, some information from the original\nsufferer should be transferred to the receiving victim in the process,\nperhaps as false memories or mannerisms or other personality traits.\nThere is not much evidence of this transfer, but there's not really much\nopportunity to have seen it, either. The eyelid-peeling, lip-tearing\ncompulsion may be such, as the other prominent psychotic in the BOTNS,\nthe woman who made children into furniture, displays similar obsessive\nrecidivism." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }