{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3014", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3014, "subject": "Thecla's Lunatic Irritation", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-03-05T17:30:41+00:00", "last": "2002-03-06T03:08:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-05T17:30:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's Lunatic Irritation", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thecla (p. 239) correction, she did not exactly take her own life to\navoid another session with the revolutionary, rather, she did so to\navoid further torment by the in-dwelling demon summoned by the device. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that this bears closer examination. Rather than a device that\nliterally summons demons (just as the Book contains hierodules rather\nthan literal angels), " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... I am thus far in agreement ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that the Rev is meant to be an electroshock device of fiendish\nrefinement that divides the brain by damaging tissue electrically and\nleaves the non-speaking part greatly resentful of the trauma and\nperhaps envious of the speaking part. \n\tThis would agree somewhat with studies of people who have had\ntheir brains divided by damage or surgical severing of the corpus\ncallosum, which GW already used in \"The Death of Doctor Island.\" This\nwould explain the image of the demon as having Thecla's face, since it\nis part of herself. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alas, it would disagree far more with these studies - while the \"two\nbrains\" do indeed appear to have independent \"behavior\" and possibly\neven independent \"personalities\" (giving rise to a host of questions\nfor soulists like myself, which have never to date been really \nadequately answered), the \"non-speaking\" portion does not appear to\nresent the \"speaking\" portion, and certainly neither portion becomes\nself-destructive in the way described here. \n\nI think Mantis's \"magical thinking\" idea may have some merit, but even\nso - what happens to the victims of the Revolutionary isn't merely \nsuicidal depression; the \"demon\" is actively sadistic and seeks to \nmake the \"host\" _suffer_. (Suicidally depressed persons, deprived of\nthe means of suicide, do not in general begin clawing at their own\nskin.) Whatever the Revolutionary does is significantly more complex\nthan this.\n\nNonetheless, there is at least some hope for a solution in the \nmagical thinking idea. If the Lupiverse contains angel-equivalents\nlike the hierodules, then magical thinking not only permits but\nseems to _require_ that we hypothesize demon-equivalents: and I\nsee no reason why the Revolutionary might not actually summon one\nand instil it into the victim.\n\n\tThe division of functions is not the same as that in the RL\ndocumented\nprocedure, but this can be attributed to the refinement of the device by\nUrthly science, the general scientific accuracy of the Book, and perhaps\nan effort on Wolfe's part to display an internal division within human\nnature. The Revolutionary turns one against one's self by separating the\ndevil already inside from the mitigating moral conscience, or perhaps it\ninvolves original sin." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- \n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-03-05T23:11:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thecla's Lunatic Irritation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:30 AM 3/5/2002, you wrote:\nI think Mantis's \"magical thinking\" idea may have some merit, but even\nso - what happens to the victims of the Revolutionary isn't merely\nsuicidal depression; the \"demon\" is actively sadistic and seeks to\nmake the \"host\" _suffer_. (Suicidally depressed persons, deprived of\nthe means of suicide, do not in general begin clawing at their own\nskin.) Whatever the Revolutionary does is significantly more complex\nthan this.\n\nNonetheless, there is at least some hope for a solution in the\nmagical thinking idea. If the Lupiverse contains angel-equivalents\nlike the hierodules, then magical thinking not only permits but\nseems to _require_ that we hypothesize demon-equivalents: and I\nsee no reason why the Revolutionary might not actually summon one\nand instil it into the victim.\n\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another aspect is that the demon made or called by the Revolutionary \ncorresponds to the Vodalus Revolutionary party within the Commonwealth. \nThey are bringing about the suicide of Urth, necessitating the New Sun. \nAnd, in Wolfean (Catholic) thinking, I should think that being a \n\"revolutionary\" is precisely what Old Adam was at the beginning.\n Thecla's being \"born again\" (resurrected) in Severian parallels \nthe black-holed sun's being born again through Severian, and the death and \nresurrection of Urth. Adam the Revolutionary is saved and regenerated.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Ingram", "address": "j_ingram at mac.com" }, "date": "2002-03-06T03:08:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thecla's Lunatic Irritation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On a slightly different note, I came across a reference to a Saint \nThecla that I found interesting. I'm curious how much light it on her \neventual union with Severian.\n\nThe passage is from Durrell's translation and adaptation of _Pope Joan_ \nby Emmanuel Royidis, and occurs in the context of an attempt by \nFrumentius to persuade Joanna to join him as a monk;\n\n\"[...] he continued to press her, arguing with the help of Deuteronomy \nand the opinion of Origen that all women would anyhow be transformed \ninto men on the Last Day. Joanna replied to this that Origen was a \nheretic and, moreover, a eunuch. Frumentius however reminded her of the \nexample of St. Thecla, sister of the Apostle Paul [...] and a host of \nothers who had hidden their white bodies like angels' wings in the black \nhabits of men and had acquired holiness living with monks.\" [p.55]\n\nAnd a footnote: St. Thecla, \"though not recorded as the sister of St. \nPaul, is said to have accompanied him on several apostolic missions. \nDescribed in Butler [...] she early felt the call of god, and broke off \nher engagement with a young man, whose despair turned to hatred. He \ndenounced her to the authorities and she was condemned to be torn to \npieces by wild animals.\" According to this story, she lived \"to a ripe \nold age\" [p.155]. I haven't checked any sources, but even if Royidis or \nDurrell were fabricating the history, it resonates well.\n\nSepia" } ] } ] }