{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3017", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3017, "subject": "Blue Mouse, Night Chough, uncollected stories", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-03-07T04:58:48+00:00", "last": "2002-03-09T15:55:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-03-07T04:58:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Blue Mouse, Night Chough, uncollected stories", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I finally got around to (re)reading \"The Blue Mouse,\" and I'm kind of sorry\nI did: it left an unpleasant taste in my mouth. The story oozes contempt\nfor the Techs, \"soldiers\" psychologically unable to fight, who believe\nthemselves morally superior to the Marksmen who do the actual fighting, but\nare really just cowardly, and treacherous to boot. Since the story was\npublished during the Vietnam War, and the war in the story, as in \"Hour of\nTrust,\" is modelled after the Vietnam war, I suspect that the Techs are\nintended to represent conscientous objectors or draft evaders. (I'm not\nobjecting to Wolfe's disapproval of COs or draft evaders, if that's what it\nis, but to the lack of subtlety with which it's expressed.)\n\nI have a hard time seeing the political background as anything more than\nwindow-dressing for the story's main point, though Wolfe would undoubtedly\nbe opposed to the UN superseding nations, or (probably) to American soldiers\nserving in a UN-controlled force.\n\nOn interesting point is that in both this story and \"Hour of Trust,\" the\nword \"peace\" is used as part of a dishonest euphemism. The occupying force\nhere is known as the \"Peace Force,\" and in \"Hour of Trust\" the rebel who\nfirst mentions the suicide bombers refers to them as \"donat[ing] their\nbodies to Peace.\" (154, Orb ed.) I wonder if this has any significance for\nPEACE, which was published two years after \"Hour of Trust.\"\n\nI also finally got around to reading \"The Night Chough,\" since I found the\nCROW anthology at my local public library. It's a very good story, much\nbetter than I'd expected it to be, and may be one of his best stories of\nrecent years. It's connected to BOTLS and BOTSS, but can be read\nindependently of both of them (and of the Crow mythos, whatever that is),\nand is well worth seeking out.\n\nSpeaking of seeking things out, I was in a used bookstore and glanced at the\nWolfe books, and to my amazement they had a copy of CASTLE OF THE OTTER for\nonly $3. (A book club edition, but still.) Even though I own CASTLE OF\nDAYS, I bought it, just to have it. It also has a bibliography in the back,\nthough only going up to 1980. Anyway, looking at the bibliography I saw\nseven stories by Wolfe which I'd never read: Mountains Like Mice, Screen\nTest, Volksweapon, The Green Wall Said, It's Very Clean, Thou Spark of\nBlood, and King under the Mountain. The first four of these are collected\nin YOUNG WOLFE, which I don't have; It's Very Clean was in an anthology\ncalled GENERATION, which I don't recall ever seeing; but the last two,\naccording to the ISFDB, only appeared in magazines. Has anybody read any of\nthese? What are they like? Are any of them unsung gems, or at least worth\nhunting down?\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-03-07T06:50:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue Mouse, Night Chough, uncollected stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Stephanides \nDate: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 10:58 PM\nI finally got around to (re)reading \"The Blue Mouse,\" and I'm kind of sorry\nI did: it left an unpleasant taste in my mouth. The story oozes contempt\nfor the Techs, \"soldiers\" psychologically unable to fight, who believe\nthemselves morally superior to the Marksmen who do the actual fighting, but\nare really just cowardly, and treacherous to boot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But in the end Lonnie underwent a battlefield conversion; when push came to\nshove, he decided that to kill was better than to die. He was gung-ho at the\nend, mowing down the enemy like a regular John Wayne." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since the story was\npublished during the Vietnam War, and the war in the story, as in \"Hour of\nTrust,\" is modelled after the Vietnam war, I suspect that the Techs are\nintended to represent conscientous objectors or draft evaders. (I'm not\nobjecting to Wolfe's disapproval of COs or draft evaders, if that's what it\nis, but to the lack of subtlety with which it's expressed.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What, then, was Wolfe saying with that ending?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-03-07T18:50:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue Mouse, Night Chough, uncollected stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Stephanides \nDate: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 10:58 PM\nSince the story was\npublished during the Vietnam War, and the war in the story, as in \"Hour of\nTrust,\" is modelled after the Vietnam war, I suspect that the Techs are\nintended to represent conscientous objectors or draft evaders. (I'm not\nobjecting to Wolfe's disapproval of COs or draft evaders, if that's what it\nis, but to the lack of subtlety with which it's expressed.)\n\nWhat, then, was Wolfe saying with that ending?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That CO's and draft evaders are no different than the soldiers who\nactually fight; that deep down inside we're all killers; and that\nCO's and draft evaders pile hypocrisy and cowardice on top of\nan unjustified feeling of superiority.\n\nIt may be that Wolfe is aiming straight at the college crowd\nand their deferments. If I remember correctly the Techs were\nchosen based on a governmental criterion (a test), not on\nintrospective or religious grounds.\n\nIt's hard to see Wolfe getting on the Amish for not bearing\narms. It's easy to see a veteran of Korea mad at college\nstudents during Vietnam." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-03-09T15:55:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue Mouse, Night Chough, uncollected stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 3/7/02 12:50 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\nBut in the end Lonnie underwent a battlefield conversion; when push came to\nshove, he decided that to kill was better than to die. He was gung-ho at the\nend, mowing down the enemy like a regular John Wayne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He could have run away; his choice is not between killing and dying, but\nbetween risking his life (by killing) and preserving it. But you're right\nthat he undergoes a conversion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What, then, was Wolfe saying with that ending?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lonnie isn't a real Tech (i.e. a coward). The psychological tests got him\nwrong, presumably because he'd been thinking about his mice (another dig at\napplying \"scientific management\" to war). Even before his conversion, he\nsees through the rationalizations the Techs use to maintain their\nself-esteem, and is ashamed of himself and his fellow Techs.\n\nBy showing Lonnie rejecting his Tech-hood and acting courageously, Wolfe is\nhighlighting the cowardice of the other Techs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on 3/7/02 12:50 PM, tom at tom at bitterman.net wrote:\nWhat, then, was Wolfe saying with that ending?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That CO's and draft evaders are no different than the soldiers who\nactually fight;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are; they're inferior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that deep down inside we're all killers;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Wolfe would put it this way; he'd probably say that we all\nhave the capacity to be killers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and that\nCO's and draft evaders pile hypocrisy and cowardice on top of\nan unjustified feeling of superiority." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It may be that Wolfe is aiming straight at the college crowd\nand their deferments." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This occurred to me after my earlier post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I remember correctly the Techs were\nchosen based on a governmental criterion (a test), not on\nintrospective or religious grounds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the test was to see whether they were psychologically able to fight,\nnot to determine what special skills they have (which they don't, for the\nmost part). But it is true that their technical skills are the excuse for\nnot using them in combat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's hard to see Wolfe getting on the Amish for not bearing\narms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but during the Vietnam War the Amish weren't what most people would\nhave thought of first when they thought of conscientious objectors. Wolfe\nwould be going after people who claimed moral objections to fighting without\nbelonging to a pacifist denomination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's easy to see a veteran of Korea mad at college\nstudents during Vietnam." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or even more so students with grad-school deferments.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }