{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3031", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3031, "subject": "Thoughts on pollution esp.", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-03-13T01:54:55+00:00", "last": "2002-03-13T17:49:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gage Kerrigan", "address": "willickers_g at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-13T01:54:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thoughts on pollution esp.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mantis (and others),\n I would like to personally thank you (mantis) for\nseveral things, among them being the first person to\nreply to any of my postings on Urth.net. That aside, I\nwould also like to state how delighted I was upon\nseeing your real name, and realizing that you were the\nsame man who has written 4 of the 20 articles/books\nthat encompass the report on which my question\ncentered. (pollution, social downfall)\n One thing I would like to clarify however, was that\nI was already nearly 100% sure that economic pollution\nhad not continued on as magnamimous a scale as our\npresent day situtation, which would actually seem\nquite absurd when discussing the time scale of New\nUrth. Quite a few theories have been published with\nthe general theme of Earth will become the garbage\ndump of the solar system as soon as a significant\nnumber of people have established extended\nself-maintained colonies off Earth.\n I was not concerned as much with continued\npollution greater than human carelessness and lack of\nconcern, more with what happened, or what went wrong.\nWe have witnesses the 'downfall' of our own space\nprogram for the sole reason that it's not necessary,\nand there haven't been any significant developements.\nI do not partake to this view, but, obviously, some\ndo.\n Considering this, my inquiry perhaps should have\nbeen the following: \"what would possibly motivate us\nto take the initiative towards leaving Earth\". I think\nthat the fact that humanity has attained interstellar\ntechnologies, and that Earth is for all purposes\nmedieval, suggests that is has been abbandoned for\nsome reason or another, and I ruled out mass attack or\ninvasion (from extraterrestrials, perhaps) because the\nsnippits of history presented in New Sun focus rather\non history that's ancient to us, and does not mention\noutside-in contact.\n Air pollution could certainly be a factor, and\nwould not only contribute to the general disdain for\nliving on Earth, but might make the sun appear darker\nand possibly cooler...(Hey!) Is there any evidence of\nApocolyptic ice caps? Could they have even reformed\n(after o-zone repairs itself) and left the geography\nsimilar to what it is today, but have driven many\ncoastside dwellers into space?\n And still, the other question... what caused the\ndecline of society from interstellar to, well, you\nknow. I doubt that a black hole which has done little\nin a long time could cause a mass techno-exodus, or\nthat they couldn't handle some new goliaths in the sea\n(esp. if they started out like Baldanders). I think\nthat there is a strong binding between ecosystem and\nsociety in BotNS, and a strong case (strong in the\nsense that it hasn't been disproven) since they are\ntwo of the more important aspects when studying a\nculture.\n\nThoughts, please.\n\n«Lord ESN»\n\n=====\nG Willickers\n aka\nGage Kerrigan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-13T17:26:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on pollution esp.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "G. Willikers done wrote (in part):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I was not concerned as much with continued\npollution greater than human carelessness and lack of\nconcern, more with what happened, or what went wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going to take a slightly different tactic from my esteemed \nfellow-insect here, and speak to what (in my reading) the BotNS \n(and indeed the whole Lupiverse ueberwerke) is _about_.\n\n\"What went wrong\" is, very simply, the Fall of Man. In Catholic\n(indeed, generally in Christian) belief, because of the Fall,\nnearly all our efforts and achievements in this life are \nforedoomed to failure and futility. Oddly, this does not mean \nthat they are not worth doing; through Grace, our works can be\nhallowed and made successful - if not at what we intended, then\nat what God intended. (\"What you meant for evil, God intended for\ngood, for the saving of many.\")\n\nThe Hierodules at one point describe Urth as quarantined. (This\nis my term, and I am describing the situation from memory; it has\nbeen a while since I last reread tBotNS.) I don't recall the exact\ndetails, but it was because of the behavior (i.e. the evil, the \nFallen nature) of humans - this is analogous to the \"Silent Planet\" \nconcept of C.S. Lewis's \"Space Trilogy.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have witnesses the 'downfall' of our own space\nprogram for the sole reason that it's not necessary,\nand there haven't been any significant developements." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm? I regard both the shuttle and the ISS as pretty significant \ndevelopments. I regard some of the unmanned probes we've sent \nout in recent years as pretty significant developments. Heck, I \nregard Hubble and COBE as _very_ significant developments.\n\nAre we moving as fast as I (or most SF fans) would like?\n\nHell, no! But movement has continued." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Considering this, my inquiry perhaps should have\nbeen the following: \"what would possibly motivate us\nto take the initiative towards leaving Earth\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Basically, if it becomes possible, some humans will do it. The \ndesire is clearly there, even if it is not universal. (Make it \npossible for _me_ to leave Earth, and, baby, I'm outahere.) \n\nIt's equally reasonable to ask \"what could possibly motivate \nthose who stay behind?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that the fact that humanity has attained\ninterstellar technologies, and that Earth is for\nall purposes medieval, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually - I don't think we can say that \"Earth\" is, for all \npurposes, medieval; we really only know this about the \nCommonwealth. It seems likely that this is true of the rest of \nUrth, to be sure. But even the word \"medieval\" is misleading - \npeople at the \"medieval level\" of technology have at least \nlimited access to things that neither true medievals nor we \ntoday can produce, and while the Urth level may not be \nuniversal, it's common enough to equip entire armies with Urth-\nlevel weaponry. Severian encounters things well beyond modern\ntech wherever he goes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "suggests that is has been abbandoned for some reason or another, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, not abandoned but quarantined (see above).\n\nAnd even the quarantine is not complete. Some humans come and go \n(if only on The Ship), and hierodules/cacogens are constantly \ncoming and going, and working for the redemption of Urth (which\nis, apparently, at least _one_ reason for Father Inire's long\nresidence in the House Absolute)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I doubt that a black hole which has done little\nin a long time could cause a mass techno-exodus, or\nthat they couldn't handle some new goliaths in the\nsea (esp. if they started out like Baldanders). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two different issues in this sentence.\n\nFirst, the black hole has done one major thing, and that is \n\"wound\" the Old Sun. Barring direct conversion of mass to\nenergy (something of which I don't think we see any real\nevidence in the books), or something essentially magical \n(like ZPF energy), the Sun is the major source of energy in\nthe Solar system. But the Sun's energy output has been\nseverely reduced, and so the ability to _run_ technology is\ndecreased.\n\nSecond: the \"giants in the sea\" (and, apparently, one at the\nSouth Pole) did not \"start out like Baldanders,\" at least not \nthe main ones: they are aliens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that there is a strong binding between ecosystem and\nsociety in BotNS, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it would be truer, because less limited and less motivated\nby a political agenda, to say that there is a strong relationship\nbetween environment and culture." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-13T17:41:55+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on pollution esp.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 13/03/2002 17:26:49 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n Considering this, my inquiry perhaps should have\nbeen the following: \"what would possibly motivate us\nto take the initiative towards leaving Earth\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Basically, if it becomes possible, some humans will do it. The\ndesire is clearly there, even if it is not universal. (Make it\npossible for _me_ to leave Earth, and, baby, I'm outahere.)\n\nIt's equally reasonable to ask \"what could possibly motivate\nthose who stay behind?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This put's me in mind of Arthur C Clarke's \"The City and the Stars\"\n\nIn simplest terms the adventurous emigrated leaving the conservative\nbehind. Human society in the galaxy subsequently left the whole of earth\nbehind.\n\nThen we have Typhon returning to a forgotten backwater - Urth. Would this\nnot be a world from which the adventurous had emigrated for generations\nleaving behind those who were not and that would underpin the cultures of\nUrth, Commonwealth and Ascia alike.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-13T17:49:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on pollution esp.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \n\nIn simplest terms the adventurous emigrated leaving the\nconservative behind. Human society in the galaxy subsequently\nleft the whole of earth behind.\n\nThen we have Typhon returning to a forgotten backwater - Urth. Would this\nnot be a world from which the adventurous had emigrated for generations\nleaving behind those who were not and that would underpin the cultures of\nUrth, Commonwealth and Ascia alike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Am I correct in thinking that the awakened sleeper that Silk meets beneath\nVirion remembers being savagely compelled to board the Whorl?\n\nThis would fit in with the idea that the \"adventurous genes\" have escaped\nUrth and fled away.\n\n haartshorn" } ] } ] }