Subject: (urth) Thoughts on pollution <MANTIS> esp.

From: Gage Kerrigan <willickers_g at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 01:54:55 +0000

Dear Mantis (and others),
   I would like to personally thank you (mantis) for
several things, among them being the first person to
reply to any of my postings on Urth.net. That aside, I
would also like to state how delighted I was upon
seeing your real name, and realizing that you were the
same man who has written 4 of the 20 articles/books
that encompass the report on which my question
centered. (pollution, social downfall)
   One thing I would like to clarify however, was that
I was already nearly 100% sure that economic pollution
had not continued on as magnamimous a scale as our
present day situtation, which would actually seem
quite absurd when discussing the time scale of New
Urth. Quite a few theories have been published with
the general theme of Earth will become the garbage
dump of the solar system as soon as a significant
number of people have established extended
self-maintained colonies off Earth.
   I was not concerned as much with continued
pollution greater than human carelessness and lack of
concern, more with what happened, or what went wrong.
We have witnesses the 'downfall' of our own space
program for the sole reason that it's not necessary,
and there haven't been any significant developements.
I do not partake to this view, but, obviously, some
do.
   Considering this, my inquiry perhaps should have
been the following: "what would possibly motivate us
to take the initiative towards leaving Earth". I think
that the fact that humanity has attained interstellar
technologies, and that Earth is for all purposes
medieval, suggests that is has been abbandoned for
some reason or another, and I ruled out mass attack or
invasion (from extraterrestrials, perhaps) because the
snippits of history presented in New Sun focus rather
on history that's ancient to us, and does not mention
outside-in contact.
   Air pollution could certainly be a factor, and
would not only contribute to the general disdain for
living on Earth, but might make the sun appear darker
and possibly cooler...(Hey!) Is there any evidence of
Apocolyptic ice caps? Could they have even reformed
(after o-zone repairs itself) and left the geography
similar to what it is today, but have driven many
coastside dwellers into space?
   And still, the other question... what caused the
decline of society from interstellar to, well, you
know. I doubt that a black hole which has done little
in a long time could cause a mass techno-exodus, or
that they couldn't handle some new goliaths in the sea
(esp. if they started out like Baldanders). I think
that there is a strong binding between ecosystem and
society in BotNS, and a strong case (strong in the
sense that it hasn't been disproven) since they are
two of the more important aspects when studying a
culture.

Thoughts, please.

«Lord ESN»

=====
G Willickers
    aka
Gage Kerrigan

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:26:49 +0000

> concern, more with what happened, or what went wrong.

I'm going to take a slightly different tactic from my esteemed 
fellow-insect here, and speak to what (in my reading) the BotNS 
(and indeed the whole Lupiverse ueberwerke) is _about_.

"What went wrong" is, very simply, the Fall of Man. In Catholic
(indeed, generally in Christian) belief, because of the Fall,
nearly all our efforts and achievements in this life are 
foredoomed to failure and futility. Oddly, this does not mean 
that they are not worth doing; through Grace, our works can be
hallowed and made successful - if not at what we intended, then
at what God intended. ("What you meant for evil, God intended for
good, for the saving of many.")

The Hierodules at one point describe Urth as quarantined. (This
is my term, and I am describing the situation from memory; it has
been a while since I last reread tBotNS.) I don't recall the exact
details, but it was because of the behavior (i.e. the evil, the 
Fallen nature) of humans - this is analogous to the "Silent Planet" 
concept of C.S. Lewis's "Space Trilogy."

> and there haven't been any significant developements.

Hmm? I regard both the shuttle and the ISS as pretty significant 
developments. I regard some of the unmanned probes we've sent 
out in recent years as pretty significant developments. Heck, I 
regard Hubble and COBE as _very_ significant developments.

Are we moving as fast as I (or most SF fans) would like?

Hell, no! But movement has continued.

> to take the initiative towards leaving Earth". 

Basically, if it becomes possible, some humans will do it. The 
desire is clearly there, even if it is not universal. (Make it 
possible for _me_ to leave Earth, and, baby, I'm outahere.) 

It's equally reasonable to ask "what could possibly motivate 
those who stay behind?"

> I think that the fact that humanity has attained
> interstellar technologies, and that Earth is for
> all purposes medieval, 

Actually - I don't think we can say that "Earth" is, for all 
purposes, medieval; we really only know this about the 
Commonwealth. It seems likely that this is true of the rest of 
Urth, to be sure. But even the word "medieval" is misleading - 
people at the "medieval level" of technology have at least 
limited access to things that neither true medievals nor we 
today can produce, and while the Urth level may not be 
universal, it's common enough to equip entire armies with Urth-
level weaponry. Severian encounters things well beyond modern
tech wherever he goes.

> suggests that is has been abbandoned for some reason or another, 

Again, not abandoned but quarantined (see above).

And even the quarantine is not complete. Some humans come and go 
(if only on The Ship), and hierodules/cacogens are constantly 
coming and going, and working for the redemption of Urth (which
is, apparently, at least _one_ reason for Father Inire's long
residence in the House Absolute).

> I doubt that a black hole which has done little
> that they couldn't handle some new goliaths in the
> sea (esp. if they started out like Baldanders). 

Two different issues in this sentence.

First, the black hole has done one major thing, and that is 
"wound" the Old Sun. Barring direct conversion of mass to
energy (something of which I don't think we see any real
evidence in the books), or something essentially magical 
(like ZPF energy), the Sun is the major source of energy in
the Solar system. But the Sun's energy output has been
severely reduced, and so the ability to _run_ technology is
decreased.

Second: the "giants in the sea" (and, apparently, one at the
South Pole) did not "start out like Baldanders," at least not 
the main ones: they are aliens.

> I think that there is a strong binding between ecosystem and
> society in BotNS, 

I think it would be truer, because less limited and less motivated
by a political agenda, to say that there is a strong relationship
between environment and culture.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:41:55 +0000

>It's equally reasonable to ask "what could possibly motivate

This put's me in mind of Arthur C Clarke's "The City and the Stars"

In simplest terms the adventurous emigrated leaving the conservative
behind. Human society in the galaxy subsequently left the whole of earth
behind.

Then we have Typhon returning to a forgotten backwater - Urth.  Would this
not be a world from which the adventurous had emigrated for generations
leaving behind those who were not and that would underpin the cultures of
Urth, Commonwealth and Ascia alike.

Matthew

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:49:27 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
>
> In simplest terms the adventurous emigrated leaving the
> conservative behind. Human society in the galaxy subsequently
> left the whole of earth behind.
>

Am I correct in thinking that the awakened sleeper that Silk meets beneath
Virion remembers being savagely compelled to board the Whorl?

This would fit in with the idea that the "adventurous genes" have escaped
Urth and fled away.

    haartshorn

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