{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3032", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3032, "subject": "Posthistory league-high cliff notes", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-03-13T02:53:40+00:00", "last": "2002-03-13T16:20:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-13T02:53:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Posthistory league-high cliff notes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "G Willickers wrote:\n I was not concerned as much with continued\npollution greater than human carelessness and lack of\nconcern, more with what happened, or what went wrong.\nWe have witnesses the 'downfall' of our own space\nprogram for the sole reason that it's not necessary,\nand there haven't been any significant developements.\nI do not partake to this view, but, obviously, some\ndo.\n Considering this, my inquiry perhaps should have\nbeen the following: \"what would possibly motivate us\nto take the initiative towards leaving Earth\". I think\nthat the fact that humanity has attained interstellar\ntechnologies, and that Earth is for all purposes\nmedieval, suggests that is has been abbandoned for\nsome reason or another, and I ruled out mass attack or\ninvasion (from extraterrestrials, perhaps) because the\nsnippits of history presented in New Sun focus rather\non history that's ancient to us, and does not mention\noutside-in contact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a matter of fact Typhon represents an alien invader, and it seems\nprobable that he brought the exultants along with him. From how far afield\nthey came (perhaps as nearby as Skuld or Verthandi; beyond this, the stars)\nremains unknown." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Air pollution could certainly be a factor, and\nwould not only contribute to the general disdain for\nliving on Earth, but might make the sun appear darker\nand possibly cooler...(Hey!) Is there any evidence of\nApocolyptic ice caps? Could they have even reformed\n(after o-zone repairs itself) and left the geography\nsimilar to what it is today, but have driven many\ncoastside dwellers into space?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the icecaps seem to be bigger, but this is presumably due to the\ndecreased energy from the Old Sun. Also why the tropical forests are\ndying, and why ahem, stars can be seen in the daytime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And still, the other question... what caused the\ndecline of society from interstellar to, well, you\nknow. I doubt that a black hole which has done little\nin a long time could cause a mass techno-exodus, or\nthat they couldn't handle some new goliaths in the sea\n(esp. if they started out like Baldanders). I think\nthat there is a strong binding between ecosystem and\nsociety in BotNS, and a strong case (strong in the\nsense that it hasn't been disproven) since they are\ntwo of the more important aspects when studying a\nculture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the \"illness\" is beyond the (relatively petty) planet eco-systems, it\nis the sun itself.\n\nI wrote an essay, \"Posthistory: 101,\" published in \"Extrapolation\" (Summer\n1996). To give a sketch of the big picture:\n\n1) The Age of Myth\n2) The Age of the Monarch\n The First Empire of 1000 Stars\n The Long Decay\n The Fall of the Empire\n Typhon's failed attempt at Second Empire\n3) The Age of the Autarch (about 1000 years)\n Ymar the Almost Just\n Severian the Great\n4) The Age of Ushas\n\nI guessed the Age of Myth to be 97,500 years before Severian's time, but it\ncould be as much as 1 million years.\n\nThe big techno-exodus in recent times was triggered by Typhon's failure,\nwhich was also tied in with the big rebellion of some of his children\nagainst him. But even this was pale compared to the fall from the First\nEmpire, which seems to have been triggered by the \"wild side\" working its\nway on a society founded upon Order alone.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nNow with UPDATES!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Snader", "address": "jeffs at ascinet.com" }, "date": "2002-03-13T12:40:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Posthistory league-high cliff notes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Michael Andre-Driussi [mailto:mantis at siriusfiction.com]\nSent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:54 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Posthistory league-high cliff notes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "G Willickers wrote:\n I was not concerned as much with continued\npollution greater than human carelessness and lack of\nconcern, more with what happened, or what went wrong.\nWe have witnesses the 'downfall' of our own space\nprogram for the sole reason that it's not necessary,\nand there haven't been any significant developements.\nI do not partake to this view, but, obviously, some\ndo.\n Considering this, my inquiry perhaps should have\nbeen the following: \"what would possibly motivate us\nto take the initiative towards leaving Earth\". I think\nthat the fact that humanity has attained interstellar\ntechnologies, and that Earth is for all purposes\nmedieval, suggests that is has been abbandoned for\nsome reason or another, and I ruled out mass attack or\ninvasion (from extraterrestrials, perhaps) because the\nsnippits of history presented in New Sun focus rather\non history that's ancient to us, and does not mention\noutside-in contact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a matter of fact Typhon represents an alien invader, and it seems\nprobable that he brought the exultants along with him. From how far afield\nthey came (perhaps as nearby as Skuld or Verthandi; beyond this, the stars)\nremains unknown.\n\nIt does make sense that the exultants where a spacefaring race. They have a\ntechnological superiority over the rest of the populace. They could possibly\nbe from a planet with a weaker gravitational pull, which one could attribute\nto their height.\n\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-13T16:20:59+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Posthistory league-high cliff notes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/03/2002 12:40:20 Jeff Snader wrote:\nAs a matter of fact Typhon represents an alien invader, and it seems\nprobable that he brought the exultants along with him. From how far\nafield\nthey came (perhaps as nearby as Skuld or Verthandi; beyond this, the\nstars)\nremains unknown." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alien in culture. But Typhon knows that Earth/Urth is the original home\nof his race.\n\nAnd from the stars, Typhon says so when talking of his lost empire and the\none he intends to rebuild.\n\nAs for the exultants I can't recall a reference that would support or\nrefute the idea that they came with Typhon. Then..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does make sense that the exultants where a spacefaring race. They\nhave a\ntechnological superiority over the rest of the populace. They could\npossibly\nbe from a planet with a weaker gravitational pull, which one could\nattribute\nto their height." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's an interesting thought.\n\nI have in mind that the exultants as a class just bred for hight, but I\ncan't say now why I thought that.\n\nTall people in Science fiction are often a result of low gravity - that\ncould be planets like Lune - or space habitats. But tall for aristocrats\nis a commonplace, simpley because such a class being most consistantly\nwell fed and having well fed mothers are likely to be avove average hight\nin any stratified society. Eventually this becomes a characteristic *of*\nthe aristocrat so breeding or or more sophisticated maniplation to fix\nthat characteristic in the line might be an end in itself ratehr than\nhaving any other purpose.\n\nMantis drew up a neat sysnopsis of relevant stuff in\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0001/0023.shtml\n\n\n\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }