{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3046", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3046, "subject": "Severian's dream ideas", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-03-18T17:33:56+00:00", "last": "2002-03-19T05:02:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-18T17:33:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's dream ideas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the second chapter of Shadow of the Torturer, which I happened to glance at \nquickly before I left my book in a temporarily inaccessible place, stated that \nSeverian was certain of two ideas (almost dreams): that time itself would stop \nand that the sun would wink out, and that a miraculous candle or flambeau \nwould come and restore light. The immediately following sentence struck me as \na blow: that bushes would sprout feelers and crawl around, and that underbrush \nwould grow eyes. Does anybody have access to that quote in a hurry? Does \nthat not portend what I have been stating in my Short Sun \"theories\" in an \neerily scary way? I can find the quote tomorrow, but I had to post while it \nwas still fresh in my mind. More evidence for a plant to animal theme.\n\nAnother point I really think that detractors from my theory need to contend \nwith is the obvious importance of the inhumu breeding: they start by gathering \ntrees and vines into a hut, pretend to be human, then release their stuff into \na polyploid system as primitive animals do. We are all familiar that early \nfetal development mirrors evolution: you start out looking like simple cell \nsystems, then in the first month or two your fetus is practically \nindistinguishable from primitive animals like fish with no limbs, then you \ndevelop more and more into the shape you will take.\n\nI contend that the step of gathering trees and vines is a case of this \nevolutionary process; someone needs to explain that scene satisfactorily, as \nwell as the presence of a wall under the waters of Blue, as well as the claim \nthat the Vanished People originated on Green before destroying \"[Silk's] \nfriends\" and moving to Blue, as well as why it is mentioned that Urth is \nsaltier than Urth twice, as well as why Babbie treats Hoof differently than he \ntreats other characters and points to his Horns -> disprove that Babbie is \nHorn and my Tree theory loses most of its strength - it really relies on the \npresence of a tree at the end of On Blue's Waters and at the beginning of In \nGreen's Jungles (notice how Cugino cuts the staff from a huge tree that is \njust like the ones on green that eat other trees). Also, you need to explain \nthe eucharist's significance beside the transformation of one matter to \nanother, and you need to say who was watching Silk in his forest eucharist in \nIn Green's Jungles when he had his back turned - if you claim it was the \nVanished People and not the trees, you need to account for his claim in Dorp \nthat he had not seen the Vanished People since Horn perished on Green.\n\nYou also need to account for why Horn was so scared when he saw that the \nIsland of the Pit was made up entirely of huge trees, and why the vanished \npeople got so mad at the woodman when he went into the forest to cut down \ntrees. You can't ignore these things and seriously threaten my theories, can \nyou? Especially by math; math doesn't appear in the books, but hybridization \nand genetics does; in the very first chapter. Also, the previous concept of a \ntree ship makes the transfer from Green to Blue that the inhumu make more \ntenable than purely animal life. And my Urth/Blue theory simplifies the \nScylla complications: she is related to the old Scylla, and really can tell \nthe narrator how to find Seawrack. How can Scylla travel between stars; and \nwhy would the destination of the Whorl happen to have the sister of old Scylla \nunless Typhon and Scylla where in big cahoots? Was there any evidence that \nTyphon was contiguous with Scylla in time? Isn't it easier to believe that \nTyphon wanted to repopulate with his own particular brand of Godhood after any \nforseeable catastrophe, to insure his immortality on the home world? (Seeing \nthat we haven't mentioned this too much, I will now propose a theme for the \nShort Sun books:\n\nTheme:\n\nYou can't go home again; either you or it has changed beyond recognition. \nHorn is not Horn when he comes home; Silk can never return to Hyacinth; Silk \ngoing to New Viron is fruitless because the people there are too wicked; Pas \nhas become Silk and will not be purely Typhon when he comes down to Blue; no \none can recognize their homeworld because it has changed so much (flooded, \nanimal life transformed, moon terraformed out of control, orbit changed, new \nsun). Babbie meets up with his son Hoof but is not recognized because he is in \na creature, no one can recognize their home.\n\nAccount for all of these things convincingly and I will gladly concede.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-18T21:39:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's dream ideas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- maa32 wrote:\nIn the second chapter of Shadow of the Torturer, which I happened to\nglance at \nquickly before I left my book in a temporarily inaccessible place,\nstated that \nSeverian was certain of two ideas (almost dreams): that time itself\nwould stop \nand that the sun would wink out, and that a miraculous candle or\nflambeau \nwould come and restore light. The immediately following sentence struck\nme as \na blow: that bushes would sprout feelers and crawl around, and that\nunderbrush \nwould grow eyes. Does anybody have access to that quote in a hurry? \nDoes \nthat not portend what I have been stating in my Short Sun \"theories\" in\nan \neerily scary way? I can find the quote tomorrow, but I had to post\nwhile it \nwas still fresh in my mind. More evidence for a plant to animal theme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting! I think there's a good chance you're right that\nplants and animals are linked in some way that's not obvious (meaning\nthat it didn't occur to me when I first read the books)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another point I really think that detractors from my theory need to\ncontend \nwith is the obvious importance of the inhumu breeding: they start by\ngathering \ntrees and vines into a hut, pretend to be human, then release their\nstuff into \na polyploid system as primitive animals do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The hut is much like bowerbirds' bowers, but it may have more\nsignificance. On the other hand, I don't remember a single trace\nof a suggestion of polyploidy anywhere in the Sun books. (Doubled\nlimbs and trunks are by no means the same thing.) I also don't know\nof any polyploidy in primitive or advanced animals. I'll be glad to\nbe corrected on both points.\n\nAs for releasing their gametes into the water, I think you're right\nthat that's the method of just about every Earth animal that mates in\nthe water, the only exception I can think of being water birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are all familiar that early \nfetal development mirrors evolution: you start out looking like simple\ncell \nsystems, then in the first month or two your fetus is practically \nindistinguishable from primitive animals like fish with no limbs, then\nyou \ndevelop more and more into the shape you will take." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now if an inhumi *embryo* looked like a liana, that would be evidence.\nUnfortunately Jahlee doesn't have any of her larva pictures.\n\n[snip some other stuff that I can't or don't want to answer right\nnow]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-> disprove that Babbie is \nHorn and my Tree theory loses most of its strength" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll do my best. The narrator is not *really* Horn, but in astral\nform he looks similar to Horn. If Babbie is *really* Horn, shouldn't\nhe look very much like Horn, enough for Hoof to comment on?\n\n[Another snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, you need to explain \nthe eucharist's significance beside the transformation of one matter to \nanother," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God reveals the correct way to share His grace (from a Catholic point\nof view, and I may not have said it right)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and you need to say who was watching Silk in his forest\neucharist in \nIn Green's Jungles when he had his back turned" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nGod and all His saints and angels. Or that's how I read it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can't ignore these things and seriously threaten my theories,\ncan \nyou? Especially by math; math doesn't appear in the books, but\nhybridization \nand genetics does; in the very first chapter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think I've seen a mathematical refutation of your theories,\nbut I think math could be relevant. Wolfe was trained as an\nengineer, not a biologist, and all the celestial mechanics I've been\nbringing up has been first-year physics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, the previous concept of a \ntree ship makes the transfer from Green to Blue that the inhumu make\nmore \ntenable than purely animal life. And my Urth/Blue theory simplifies the\n\nScylla complications: she is related to the old Scylla, and really can\ntell \nthe narrator how to find Seawrack. How can Scylla travel between stars;\nand \nwhy would the destination of the Whorl happen to have the sister of old\nScylla \nunless Typhon and Scylla where in big cahoots? Was there any evidence\nthat \nTyphon was contiguous with Scylla in time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes: he uploaded her into Mainframe as a goddess.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Theme:\n\nYou can't go home again;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(If I remember _Again, Dangerous Visions_ correctly, Wolfe has said\nthat he may be distantly related to Thomas Wolfe.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "either you or it has changed beyond recognition. \nHorn is not Horn when he comes home; Silk can never return to Hyacinth;\nSilk \ngoing to New Viron is fruitless because the people there are too wicked;\nPas \nhas become Silk and will not be purely Typhon when he comes down to\nBlue; no \none can recognize their homeworld because it has changed so much\n(flooded, \nanimal life transformed, moon terraformed out of control, orbit changed,\nnew \nsun). Babbie meets up with his son Hoof but is not recognized because he\nis in \na creature, no one can recognize their home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I think you're right to point this theme out, even if I'm not\nconvinced by some of your examples." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-03-18T22:32:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's dream ideas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: maa32 \nDate: Monday, March 18, 2002 11:34 AM\nas well as the claim" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that the Vanished People originated on Green before destroying \"[Silk's]\nfriends\" and moving to Blue<<\n\n? When Horn first met the Neighbors, and they formally turned over\npossession of Blue to him as representative of all the people, the Neighbor\nwho called himself Horn said, in the course of asking permission to visit\nBlue at will: \"From this whorl we sprang.\" (OBW, 271)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-19T01:44:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's dream ideas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, maa32 wrote:\nfriends\" and moving to Blue, as well as why it is mentioned that Urth is \nsaltier than Urth twice, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you mean Urth is saltier than Blue? Isn't that just because the\ndying sun means more water is frozen in the polar caps, thus the ocean\nsalt is more concentrated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as well as why Babbie treats Hoof differently than he \ntreats other characters and points to his Horns -> disprove that Babbie is \nHorn and my Tree theory loses most of its strength " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You almost had me wavering on this one, because it's the best explaination\nI've seen for Marble's prophesy about riding a beast with three horns --\nwhich is the sort of pun Wolfe likes.\n\nHowever, when the Rajan records the prophesy, he writes the aside \"She\nactually said this,\" as if to answer a skeptic who wouldn't believe she\ncould have made such an accurate prophecy, which would indicate that the\nRajan knows at that point in the narrative how the prophesy came\ntrue. But this is written long before the point where you think Horn's\nspirit went into Babbie, so it must refer to something that happened\nearlier.\n\nDid Horn ride a three-horned beast on Green? Did the godling that picked\nhim up outside Blood's house have horns?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "another, and you need to say who was watching Silk in his forest eucharist in \nIn Green's Jungles when he had his back turned " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely the Outsider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you? Especially by math; math doesn't appear in the books, but hybridization \nand genetics does; in the very first chapter. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there's a much simpler explaination for the hybridization lecture at\nthe beginning: it forshadows the Silk/Horn hybrid. Occam's razor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "tenable than purely animal life. And my Urth/Blue theory simplifies the \nScylla complications: she is related to the old Scylla, and really can tell \nthe narrator how to find Seawrack. How can Scylla travel between stars; and \nwhy would the destination of the Whorl happen to have the sister of old Scylla \nunless Typhon and Scylla where in big cahoots? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Mother is an undine, which we know from the Urth books can \"swim\nbetween the stars\" (maybe that's literally true, maybe it's just a poetic\nway of saying they have access to starships). Scylla the daughter of\nTyphon rebelled against him by collaborating with one of Typhon's enemies,\nthe \"greater Scylla,\" also an undine. Typhon's daughter probably has a\nreal name (like \"Pas\" is really Typhon) and she may have taken her Whorl\nDivinity name from the \"greater Scylla\" on Urth.\n\nIt's possible that the fact the Whorl ended up in the Blue/Green system is\ndue to mechanations of the Urth undine, attempting to deliver the ship\ninto the clutches of her sister the Mother.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-03-19T05:02:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's dream ideas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:33 AM -0700 3/18/02, maa32 wrote:\nIn the second chapter of Shadow of the Torturer, which I happened to glance at\nquickly before I left my book in a temporarily inaccessible place, stated that\nSeverian was certain of two ideas (almost dreams): that time itself would stop\nand that the sun would wink out, and that a miraculous candle or flambeau\nwould come and restore light. The immediately following sentence struck me as\na blow: that bushes would sprout feelers and crawl around, and that underbrush\nwould grow eyes. Does anybody have access to that quote in a hurry? Does\nthat not portend what I have been stating in my Short Sun \"theories\" in an\neerily scary way? I can find the quote tomorrow, but I had to post while it\nwas still fresh in my mind. More evidence for a plant to animal theme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc,\n\nYour recollection is a wee bit faulty. Here is the quote:\n\n-----------------------------------------------\nTwo thoughts (that were nearly dreams) obsessed me and made them [the \nlives of the animals and plants that Severian watched through the \nwindow and door of \"his\" mausoleum in the necropolis] infinitely \nprecious. The first was that at some not-distant time, time itself \nwould stop ... the colored days that had so long been drawn forth \nlike a chain of conjuror's scarves come to an end, the sullen sun \nwink out at last. The second was that there existed somewhere a \nmiraculous light - which I sometimes conceived of as a candle, \nsometimes as a flambeau - that engendered life in whatever objects it \nfell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender legs and \nwaving feelers, and a rough brown brush opened black eyes and \nscurried up a tree.\n-----------------------------------------------\n\nInterestingly enough, there is no hint that the miraculous light is \ngoing to rekindle the sun in this passage.\n\nThe power of the light is to \"engender life\" not change plants (which \nare already alive) into animals. A leaf plucked from a bush is a dead \nleaf, even though it may take quite a while to look fully dead. So \nWolfe has it turn into something like an insect to emphasize that the \nleaf is alive again.\n\nAnd if you really think that when Wolfe refers to \"a rough brown \nbrush\" above he means 'underbrush' and not a scrubbing brush, then we \nhave no basis for further discussion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] } ] }