{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3048", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3048, "subject": "ancient city", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-03-19T03:01:22+00:00", "last": "2002-03-20T23:28:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-19T03:01:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ancient city", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "to one of my comments about the vanished people on green,I was answered:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"? When Horn first met the Neighbors, and they formally turned over\npossession of Blue to him as representative of all the people, the Neighbor\nwho called himself Horn said, in the course of asking permission to visit\nBlue at will: \"From this whorl we sprang.\" (OBW, 271)\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am referring to the statement in In Green's Jungles that tells of how the \ncity of the Vanished People there was far older than anything on Blue. Of \ncourse those neighbors \"sprang\" up from Blue: they were produced just then \nwhen Horn fell in the pit on Blue. On the other hand, the terraformed trees \ndid orginally spring up on Urth before being transplanted to Lune, I suppose \n... they just evolved further there. (obviously, the older cities are \nunderwater on Blue so the narrator doesn't really know about them)\n\nAs far as Babbie looking completely like Horn in the astral travel: Silk \nlooked like a combination of Horn and Silk at certain points. I argue that a \nhuge portion of Horn transfrerred into Babbie at the end of On Blue's Waters, \nbut not QUITE all of him. Of course he looks like Babbie, too, but he is \nhumanoid (note that he is far more humanoid that Scylla in Oreb).\n\nAlso, if we want to talk a little bit more about time travel in these books, \nthere is a fascinating conversation between Seawrack and the narrator in On \nBlue's Waters in which she says she can move events from one time in her \nmemory to another as she recounts her story; she then says the narrator can do \nthat, too. I was a bit baffled by that - could it be related to a \ntime-traversing principle? After all, \"certain mystes\" aver that the real \nworld exists only in the human mind, and that our dreams are someone else's \nreality. (Severian as dream of Silk?)\n\nSome good responses to my challenge ... but I'm just not buying the actual \npresence of God and his angels as a valid explanation for a lot of those \nthings. That's a bit too pat, isn't it? It just doesn't seem like Gene to \nblatantly put them into such a huge role unseen ... why would God manifest \nhimself to Silk again after his first enlightenment, which occured outside of \ntime and has since stayed with Silk? and how could that be logically \ndetermined from the text? \nAlso, some simple shrimp release their gametes into the water and actually \nform a allopolyploid viable life cycle for a short span, then become haploid \nagain to mature. (let me look this up again and see if I can find a source for \nyou). Maybe the inhumu are like simple shrimp ... but they do, in fact make a \npoint of gathering those vines as symbols of something ... and perhaps that \nsomething is the hope of leaving behind their vegetative and animal pasts and \nbecoming true humans.\n\nAnd as far as the secret goes, I still argue that its importance lies in its \nability to incorporate mystical genetic material into offspring in one \ngeneration: the parents are not the ones who receive the beneficial properties \nof the blood, but their offspring do. I still argue for a hybrid \nunderstanding of the secret.\n\nNice point about Scylla - I guess Cillinia was already in the thrall of the \nsea creature when she was downloaded.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-03-19T07:19:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) ancient city", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc quoted me:\n-------------------\n\n\"? When Horn first met the Neighbors, and they formally turned over\npossession of Blue to him as representative of all the people, the Neighbor\nwho called himself Horn said, in the course of asking permission to visit\nBlue at will: \"From this whorl we sprang.\" (OBW, 271)\"\n-----------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and wrote:\nI am referring to the statement in In Green's Jungles that tells of how\nthe" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "city of the Vanished People there was far older than anything on Blue. Of\ncourse those neighbors \"sprang\" up from Blue: they were produced just then\nwhen Horn fell in the pit on Blue.<<\n\nI guess I should have quoted the whole paragraph:\n\n\"From this whorl we sprang. You spoke of a hundred years, and of a thousand.\nThere are rocks and rivers, trees and islands here that have been famous\namong us for many thousands of years. This is one such place. I ask you\nagain, may we visit it, and the others?\"\n\nThe Neighbors _did not_ spring into existence when Horn fell into the Pit.\nThey abandoned Blue for, er . . . greener pastures, many thousands of years\nearlier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc also wrote:\nAlso, if we want to talk a little bit more about time travel in these\nbooks," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "there is a fascinating conversation between Seawrack and the narrator in On\nBlue's Waters in which she says she can move events from one time in her\nmemory to another as she recounts her story; she then says the narrator can\ndo\nthat, too. I was a bit baffled by that - could it be related to a\ntime-traversing principle? After all, \"certain mystes\" aver that the real\nworld exists only in the human mind, and that our dreams are someone else's\nreality. (Severian as dream of Silk?)<<\n\nI just finished reading OBW again, and recall no such conversation. Have you\na source? I think you may have meant Seawrack's comments about trying to\nforget her life under the sea before she met Horn (OBW, 249):\n------------------\n \"Not what you think. I was trying to forget the water, and everything I\ndid in it. Every time I remembered something that happened there, I would\nthink of something that's happened since I've been with you, some little\nthing or something you said, and put it there instead.\"\n \"Can you do that?\" I was incredulous, as I still am.\n \"Yes!\" she said fiercely. \"So could you.\"\n-------------------\n\nThere's nothing there about time travel.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-19T13:05:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) ancient city", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n------------------\n \"Not what you think. I was trying to forget the water, and everything I\ndid in it. Every time I remembered something that happened there, I would\nthink of something that's happened since I've been with you, some little\nthing or something you said, and put it there instead.\"\n \"Can you do that?\" I was incredulous, as I still am.\n \"Yes!\" she said fiercely. \"So could you.\"\n-------------------" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is probably forshadowing Silk trying to replace his own painful\nmemories with those of Horn's.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-20T23:28:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) ancient city", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- maa32 wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as Babbie looking completely like Horn in the astral travel: Silk\n\nlooked like a combination of Horn and Silk at certain points. I argue\nthat a \nhuge portion of Horn transfrerred into Babbie at the end of On Blue's\nWaters, \nbut not QUITE all of him. Of course he looks like Babbie, too, but he is\n\nhumanoid (note that he is far more humanoid that Scylla in Oreb)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Humanoid is one thing, but why doesn't he at least *resemble* Horn?\n\nMaybe he just likes Hoof because he likes Silkhorn and understands that\nHoof is SH's son in some sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, if we want to talk a little bit more about time travel in these\nbooks, \nthere is a fascinating conversation between Seawrack and the narrator in\nOn \nBlue's Waters in which she says she can move events from one time in her\n\nmemory to another as she recounts her story; she then says the narrator\ncan do \nthat, too. I was a bit baffled by that - could it be related to a \ntime-traversing principle? After all, \"certain mystes\" aver that the\nreal \nworld exists only in the human mind, and that our dreams are someone\nelse's \nreality. (Severian as dream of Silk?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took this as moving memories from one \"slot\" to another but not\nchanging the \"time stamps\" on the memories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some good responses to my challenge ... but I'm just not buying the\nactual \npresence of God and his angels as a valid explanation for a lot of those\n\nthings. That's a bit too pat, isn't it? It just doesn't seem like Gene\nto \nblatantly put them into such a huge role unseen ... why would God\nmanifest \nhimself to Silk again after his first enlightenment, which occured\noutside of \ntime and has since stayed with Silk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because (from the Catholic point of view) this is the reinstitution of\nthe real Eucharist and the narrator is in the \"real presence\" of God.\nHe says so. Some saints and angels might want to be spectators. I\nwouldn't bring them up for the interpretation of a lesser event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and how could that be logically determined from the text? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see that it can, but it's the most sensible explanation that\nI've seen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, some simple shrimp release their gametes into the water and\nactually \nform a allopolyploid viable life cycle for a short span, then become\nhaploid \nagain to mature. (let me look this up again and see if I can find a\nsource for \nyou). Maybe the inhumu are like simple shrimp ... but they do, in fact\nmake a \npoint of gathering those vines as symbols of something ... and perhaps\nthat \nsomething is the hope of leaving behind their vegetative and animal\npasts and \nbecoming true humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's true. They're building houses like ours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And as far as the secret goes, I still argue that its importance lies in\nits \nability to incorporate mystical genetic material into offspring in one \ngeneration: the parents are not the ones who receive the beneficial\nproperties \nof the blood, but their offspring do. I still argue for a hybrid \nunderstanding of the secret." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see there's a thematic relationship: the \"hybridization\" of\nthe inhumi and the people whose blood they drink gives \"better\"\ninhumi; cross-pollinating pure strains of corn gives better corn;\nHorn's spirit in Silk's body gives a truly good person who is not\n(so) depressed and is comptetent on Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice point about Scylla - I guess Cillinia was already in the thrall of\nthe \nsea creature when she was downloaded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very charitable of you--something like that is what I should have\nmeant, but not what I did mean. I was forgetting about the difference\nbetween Cilinia and the real Scylla on Earth.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }