{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3081", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3081, "subject": "eponymous time travel", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-03-25T15:18:39+00:00", "last": "2002-03-26T17:12:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-25T15:18:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) eponymous time travel", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the biggest obstacles to my hackneyed (to the point of exhaustion) \nshort sun interpretation is proving that Silk/Horn can move through time, and \nspecifically proving that Rigoglio/Roger has some reason for traveling to the \nparticular time of Severian from the far future. I have done the whole \n\"return to the past through dreams\", \"my travels are dreams\", \"mother's song \nis one of time\" thing, but that doesn't seem enough to rationalize why. My \nonly other defense (previously) was that if we think the Neighbors have moved \non but are still around, then have they gone through time? (it is a higher \ndimension, after all). If you say that Blue is not Urth, where have these \nneighbors gone, and why did they come back? I say it is, and that they once \nlived on Urth/Blue. \nBut here is something new:\n\nHere is an interesting quote from Chapter XIX of Shadow of the torturer: The \nbotanic gardens:\n\"'supposing him - we turn at this corner, Severian, you may see the head of \nthe stair, if you'll look, there where the STATUES OF THE EPONYMS stand - \nsupposing him to have lived, he was by definiton the Master of Power. Which \nmeans the transcendence of reality, and includes the negation of time. Isn't \nthat correct?'\nI nodded.\n'Then there is nothing to prevent him, from a position, say, of thirty tousand \nyears ago, coming into what we call the present. Dead or not, if he ever \nexisted, he could be around the next bend of the street or the next turn of \nthe week.\" (Shadow and Claw, 119)\n\nNotice that this is the entrance to the Botanic Gardens, where time is negated \nand Isongoma and the missionaries can be seen due to the bending reflection of \ntime (remember that Father Inires mirrors, based on reflection, can summon \nthings from different times and places). \nRemember how I couldn't account for how the red light of Urth could be seen \nfrom Blue in that one chapter? doesn't that sound like the principle behind \nInire's mirrors (remember that one short sun story in Endangered Species about \nthe doll and the cat in the mirrors?) where light is reflected on itself and \nproduces weird things?\nAlso, remember what Rigoglio says as soon as he gets to Urth? \"THE EPONYMS\". \nI propose that the eponyms exist in a metanymic relationship to the botanic \ngardens - they are responsible for its time bending properties - and note how \nthey are thrown in the middle of the discussion above about the negation of \ntime. Wolfe likes to put two apparently unrelated things together to \nassociate them.\nThe eponyms may provide some precedent for the bending of time - and it is the \nfirst thing that Rigoglio says when he gets there. How else can we explain \nthe properties of the Botanic gardens? I am saying they may have some kind of \ntime bending property, and that this bending may be responsible for some of \nthe light that can be seen \"from a different time\". Note that even though \nSeverian and Agia can see the missionaries, only the primitive can sense them.\n \nWhile this is not definitive or clear, I think it establishes a nice \nsynchronic theme. Here are some of the points of contiguity between Shadow \nand the Short Sun books in which small details become important:\nMissing guard at the gate explained\neponym statues\nRudesind's explanation of the moon and its forest and its new closeness to \nUrth\nTriskelle (???)\nScylla in the harbor\nGreen Man's evolution\n\nAnything else interesting about the eponyms in the text? I think they show up \nnear the Vatic fountain in Claw, but I need to check for sure.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-25T18:58:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) eponymous time travel", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nHere is an interesting quote from Chapter XIX of Shadow of the torturer: The\nbotanic gardens:\n\"'supposing him - we turn at this corner, Severian, you may see the head of\nthe stair, if you'll look, there where the STATUES OF THE EPONYMS stand -\nsupposing him to have lived, he was by definiton the Master of Power. Which\nmeans the transcendence of reality, and includes the negation of time. Isn't\nthat correct?'\nI nodded.\n'Then there is nothing to prevent him, from a position, say, of thirty\ntousand\nyears ago, coming into what we call the present. Dead or not, if he ever\nexisted, he could be around the next bend of the street or the next turn of\nthe week.\" (Shadow and Claw, 119)\n\nNotice that this is the entrance to the Botanic Gardens, where time is\nnegated\nand Isongoma and the missionaries can be seen due to the bending\nreflection of\ntime (remember that Father Inires mirrors, based on reflection, can summon\nthings from different times and places)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it is not at the entrance to the Botanic Gardens! From the stairs one\ncan see the Botanic Gardens building, yes. But the stairs of the quote are\nrather long and steep and lead down to the riverside after some twists and\nturns. From there one somehow gets out to the island where the Gardens are\nlocated. Then one enters the building." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, remember what Rigoglio says as soon as he gets to Urth? \"THE EPONYMS\".\nI propose that the eponyms exist in a metanymic relationship to the botanic\ngardens - they are responsible for its time bending properties - and note how\nthey are thrown in the middle of the discussion above about the negation of\ntime. Wolfe likes to put two apparently unrelated things together to\nassociate them.\nThe eponyms may provide some precedent for the bending of time - and it is\nthe\nfirst thing that Rigoglio says when he gets there. How else can we explain\nthe properties of the Botanic gardens? I am saying they may have some\nkind of\ntime bending property, and that this bending may be responsible for some of\nthe light that can be seen \"from a different time\". Note that even though\nSeverian and Agia can see the missionaries, only the primitive can sense them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Better to say that the location of eponyms in the text relatively near two\nepisodes of time/space distortion seems so uncannily similar to you that\nyou wonder at the possible linkages/personal associations. (Because the\nmirrors explain the time bending, rather explicitly; and there is no\nmention of eponyms in that explanation.)\n\nIn TBOTNS sundials show up, too. These are more straightforward, since\nthey tell time, and when the sundials in the Atrium of Time show no time,\nwell, we sense that the atrium is in some way outside of time, or at least,\nnot inside mundane time.\n\nSeems to me that real-world eponyms are not devices to tell time, but\nby-products of time and culture. If the word is still in use, then the\neponym remains: our busts of the eponyms would include de Sade, Quisling,\nBowdler, et ali. If in a hundred years we no longer used the words sadism,\nquisling, and bowdlerize, then those busts would be removed, the eponyms\nforgotten along with their \"words.\" (Note the memorial/funereal tinct\nhere.)\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T17:12:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) eponymous time travel", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seems to me that real-world eponyms are not devices to tell time, but\nby-products of time and culture. If the word is still in use, then the\neponym remains: our busts of the eponyms would include de Sade,\nQuisling,\nBowdler, et ali. If in a hundred years we no longer used the words\nsadism,\nquisling, and bowdlerize, then those busts would be removed, the\neponyms\nforgotten along with their \"words.\" (Note the memorial/funereal tinct\nhere.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is interesting, but my guess is that the eponyms are saints, like\nthe eponyms of San Francisco, Marylebone, people named James, etc.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }