Subject: (urth) Summa contra Marcus

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:06:53 +0000

A summary of objections to the theory that Blue = Urth.

Others may wish to add any that I've missed.

I. The cosmographical objection.

The WHORL, a slower-than-light ship, set out _from_ the 
Urth system. Barring evidence to the contrary (which has
not, to the best of my knowledge, been presented), it begins
in a reference frame more-or-less stationary relative to 
the Solar system, accelerates away from the Solar system, 
and eventually brakes to come to relative rest at another
system. In order for the "other system" to be the Solar 
system, then, some mechanism must be provided for the motion 
away from the Solar system to somehow bring the WHORL back
to the Solar system. Several such mechanisms are certainly
possible, as: the WHORL hit some kind of "space warp" 
(which is, I believe, your proposal); the Solar system 
hit ditto; the WHORL was gone so long that it wandered 
around the edge of curved spacetime. 

However, and this is the key here, it is not sufficient 
for such a mechanism to be offered, or even for it to
be "plausible." Some _textual_ evidence (direct or 
indirect) for the mechanism must also be adduced. To 
say (as you have in effect done) that the space(-time) 
warp must be present because it fits your theory, is 
_not_ textual evidence; it is circular logic, using 
the "Urth=Blue" theory as support for the "space warp"
theory which was, in turn, created to support the 
"Urth=Blue" theory. If reasonably unambiguous textual 
evidence could be adduced for the "space warp" theory, 
then it would indeed support the "Urth=Blue" theory.
Likewise, if the "Urth=Blue" theory were supported by
evidence so strong that it could stand on its own, then
finding evidence for a mechanism might be problematized.
But as things stand ... no.

II. The genetic objection.

The life forms of Blue/Green are sufficiently different
from those of Urth that some mechanism must be proposed,
and evidence given, for the production of one from the
other. You have proposed _part_ of a mechanism (polyploidy), 
a mechanism which may, in some cases, produce effects 
similar to those seen in the life forms of Blue (but which 
produces nothing vaguely similar to the inhumi). However,
no mechanism whatsoever has been offered for _why_ Urthian
animal forms might have become uniformly polyploid, and 
with such uniform phenotypic effects evidencing in a 
variety of species.

III. The chronological objection.

Related to the above. Assuming that the mechanism for 
Urth's animalia becoming uniformly polyploid is discovered
and evidence given for it, you find yourself in a bit of
a sticky wicket. Either Blue is in Urth's distant past, or
it is in Ushas's distant future. 

Now, if it is in Urth's past, the genetic objection becomes 
redoubled -- a second mechanism must be provided for the 
return of Urthian life to diploid normality by the era of 
Severian. But other chronological objections (beginning, 
but not limited to, the difficulty of placing an era 
resembling the Blue of SHORT SUN anywhere in Severian's 
apparent past) make this whole idea so unlikely that, 
frankly, I dismiss it out of hand.

So suppose Blue to be the distant future of Ushas. Now, we
can begin by wondering: why the did Green Man not show the
"polyploid" characteristics of Bluvian life? Nor, indeed,
did he resemble the Neighbors, or Bluvian life forms in 
general, in any interesting way. And, supposing you do 
successfully overcome this objection -- for example, proposing
that the Green Man is from even farther in the future, a time
when the Colonists and the Inhumi have somehow merged into a
single species (mechanism required, etc.) -- then we would
need to have some plausible sequence of events leading from
Severian's time, to the Neighbors, to the colonists', to the 
Green Man's.

IV. The objection from gravitation

This has been discussed to death ... but ... it's very hard 
to produce a plausible argument for Green as a satellite of
Blue (even an escaped satellite) without producing tidal 
effects of a scale that dwarf those described by Horn.
	Similarly, the failure of Horn to describe any real
difference in weight, trajectory of thrown objects, walking
gait, etc., between the surfaces of Blue, Green, and the
Red Sun Whorl, and the "surface" of the WHORL (other than
the interesting discussion of floater mechanics in LONG SUN),
stands as strong evidence that the surface gravities of 
Blue and Green are very similar, and very similar to that of
Urth, i.e., one G. Nor does the "climbing the tower one-handed"
business really help; we know that the Narrator is not subject
to the ordinary laws of physics when astrally travelling 
(e.g., is, he is capable of creating weapons out of thin air);
further, that is, as noted in an earlier post, a classic 
adventure fiction trope.

Summary of the summary: I admit that you have "dealt with" 
each of these objections at some level in the past. The problem
is that in each case, your method of dealing with the objection 
is to pile another hypothetical on top of the hypothesis already
in place (i.e., "Blue = Urth"). This might be satisfactory for a
theory with a really solid textual basis, but for a theory that
begins fairly shaky, such additional hypotheses are completely 
unacceptable, because your explanations for the objections must,
of themselves, be solid enough to _support_ the overall theory.

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:10:42 +0000

Is "Marcus" the right case?  Just curious.

> with such uniform phenotypic effects evidencing in a 

Stop it!  Polyploidy has nothing to do with extra limbs, as Marc
has agreed.
> single species (mechanism required, etc.)

Or by assuming the Short Sun books aren't in the Green Man's future
any more than they're in Master Ash's.

> -- then we would

The only real problem I see is why humanity either altered itself and
most terrestrial fauna to have doubled limbs, or left Ushas to the
Neighbors and their related alien fauna (depending on whether the
Neighbors are human-descended or not).  But that's a very big problem.
There's also the question of the inhumi would have gotten to Lune,
but heck, there's a question of why anybody brought the alzabos to
Urth.

> effects of a scale that dwarf those described by Horn.

As I just mentioned, this all has nothing to with whether Blue is
Ushas.

> further, that is, as noted in an earlier post, a classic 

It's not unreasonable to assume that the gravity of Lune was already
raised as part of the terraforming (although that creates an even
bigger problem in conjunction with Lune's being closer to Urth than
the moon is to the earth).

> of themselves, be solid enough to _support_ the overall theory.

I agree with this.

Jerry Friedman

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:06:56 +0000

Jerry Friedman wrote...

> Stop it!  Polyploidy has nothing to do with extra limbs,
> as Marc has agreed.

Well, yeah. But it was (at the time) the only explanation that
had been offered. I have since offered a very silly retrovirus
-- one capable of having a nearly identical effect on elephants
and crocodilians, and possibly humans...

> Or by assuming the Short Sun books aren't in the
> Green Man's future any more than they're in Master
> Ash's.

I'm pretty sure that Wolfe has stated that Sev's bringing 
of the New Sun means that the Green Man's future is the
one that will happen.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:12:41 +0000

>of the New Sun means that the Green Man's future is the

Anyone have something to confirm this?

It's interesting that the 'divergent futures' idea often posits an
infinite number of posibilies, sometimes of varying probability: Asimov's
psychohistory; Herbert's prescience,  etc etc.  Because of this perhaps a
reader might assume an 'anything possible' future.  But as far as I can
recall we are only shown 2 posibilities: Ashe's Ice and the Green Man's
fecund world.  The New Sun doesn't/does come.  A duality:  very Lupine.

Matthew

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