{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3086", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3086, "subject": "contra Summa contra Marcus", "messages": 13, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-03-25T18:24:51+00:00", "last": "2002-03-26T21:18:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-25T18:24:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nsystem, then, some mechanism must be provided for the motion\naway from the Solar system to somehow bring the WHORL back\nto the Solar system." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It flew in a circle, as Pas/Typhon intended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "II. The genetic objection.\n\nThe life forms of Blue/Green are sufficiently different\nfrom those of Urth that some mechanism must be proposed,\nand evidence given, for the production of one from the\nother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The life forms of Blue are edible to those of Urth, and vica-versa. On a\ngalactic scale this is 99.99 percent smilarity.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "III. The chronological objection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I pass." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IV. The objection from gravitation\n\nThis has been discussed to death ... but ... it's very hard\nto produce a plausible argument for Green as a satellite of\nBlue (even an escaped satellite) without producing tidal\neffects of a scale that dwarf those described by Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not possible that the Blue/Green system could be gravitationally\nstable. Ergo, it is recent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Similarly, the failure of Horn to describe any real\ndifference in weight, trajectory of thrown objects, walking\ngait, etc., between the surfaces of Blue, Green, and the" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) The large animals of Green\n2) The vast trees of Green\n\n\nBoth argue for a low gravity.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-25T22:16:29+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "system, then, some mechanism must be provided for the motion\naway from the Solar system to somehow bring the WHORL back\nto the Solar system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It flew in a circle, as Pas/Typhon intended." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this is at least plausible. But is there any _textual\nevidence_ in its favor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "II. The genetic objection.\nThe life forms of Blue/Green are sufficiently different\nfrom those of Urth that some mechanism must be proposed,\nand evidence given, for the production of one from the\nother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The life forms of Blue are edible to those of Urth, and\nvica-versa. On a galactic scale this is 99.99 percent\nsmilarity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While this is clever, it entirely evades the questions\nactually asked about the genetic issues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IV. The objection from gravitation" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not possible that the Blue/Green system could\nbe gravitationally stable. Ergo, it is recent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not possible _if_ the distances given are accurate. \nHowever, there is no evidence that it is recent, and the\nability of the inhumi to make the crossing argues that \nthe two worlds have been having reasonably near passages\nfor -- well, for long enough for such an expensive \nadaptation to have been worthwhile. There are two ways\nout of this: \n(1) the Neighbors, after reaching Green, deliberately \n engineered the inhumi to make the crossing -- which \n seems kind of unlikely\n(2) the ability to make the crossing is a side-effect \n of some aspect of the inhumi physiology (about which \n we -- probably -- do not know), originally evolved \n to meet some other need. This is what biologists call \n \"pre-adaptationism,\" and is generally looked upon with\n some scorn, but I'll grant that GW is a bit of an\n evolutionary heretic so that's probably not an\n argument against this.\n\nHowever, again, this is putting the cart before the horse:\nall this is throwing hypotheticals at objections to an\noriginal hypothetical which has yet to be significantly\nsupported from the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Similarly, the failure of Horn to describe any real\ndifference in weight, trajectory of thrown objects, walking\ngait, etc., between the surfaces of Blue, Green, and the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) The large animals of Green" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A brief glance at the geological history of Terra suggests that\nsome extremely large animals are capable of existing under 1G\nconditions ... unless you care to suggest that the gravity of\nEarth has significantly increased since the age of dinosaurs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) The vast trees of Green" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I live a few hours' drive from the giant redwoods of California.\nThe trees of Green do not strike me as a significant argument \nfor low gravity." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-25T21:25:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nIt flew in a circle, as Pas/Typhon intended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, this is at least plausible. But is there any _textual\nevidence_ in its favor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the analogy of Noah's Ark seems compelling to me" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "II. The genetic objection.\nThe life forms of Blue/Green are sufficiently different\nfrom those of Urth that some mechanism must be proposed,\nand evidence given, for the production of one from the\nother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The life forms of Blue are edible to those of Urth, and\nvica-versa. On a galactic scale this is 99.99 percent\nsmilarity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While this is clever, it entirely evades the questions\nactually asked about the genetic issues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A fairer reply would be that the life forms are very similar indeed except\nfor the limb doubling.\n\nThe life forms of Blue are nearly all near - analogs of Urth forms, with the\npossible exception of the sea creatures. This is not true of Green, where\nthe animals are far more alien, but even on Green the animals can eat and be\neaten both by Blue and Urth fauna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "IV. The objection from gravitation" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not possible that the Blue/Green system could\nbe gravitationally stable. Ergo, it is recent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not possible _if_ the distances given are accurate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes it is, anything can happen in a four-body system like\nSun-Urth-Lune-White fountain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, there is no evidence that it is recent, and the\nability of the inhumi to make the crossing argues that\nthe two worlds have been having reasonably near passages\nfor -- well, for long enough for such an expensive\nadaptation to have been worthwhile. There are two ways\nout of this:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "3) It is possible that Inhumi are native to Lune and lived there when it\ncircled round Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) The large animals of Green" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) The vast trees of Green" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The trees are specifically mentioned as being **much larger than those on\nBlue**. Ergo, Green has lower gravity than Blue.\n\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T00:57:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, this is at least plausible. But is there any _textual\nevidence_ in its favor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the analogy of Noah's Ark seems compelling to me" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An analogy to an outside source, with no citation of the text at\nhand to invite compare with that outside source, hardly constitutes \n\"textual evidence.\" If there's a controlling Biblical analogy, it's\nMoses.\n\nIn favor of an analogy to the Ark, I suppose one could adduce Typhon's \nattempt to make himself God; against it, however, one might begin with\nthe highly-minimalist nature of the Ark as vs. the inclusion of many \ncultures aboard the WHORL. Then, too, one can't help but wonder who in \nthis analogy would play a role even vaguely analogous to Noah's ...\nRemora?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While this is clever, it entirely evades the questions\nactually asked about the genetic issues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A fairer reply would be that the life forms are very similar\nindeed except for the limb doubling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes. So either we have a totally unexplained shift in huge\nportions of the animal kingdom, to a polyploidy that seems to\nhave no significant ill effect but produces doubled limbs; or\nelse, equally difficult to explain, beasts ranging from elephants\nto crocodiles undergoing mutations that cause their limbs to \ndouble. Either way, it requires a fair amount of explaining.\nPerhaps you'd like to hypothesize some weird retrovirus that\ndoes this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The life forms of Blue are nearly all near - analogs of Urth\nforms, with the possible exception of the sea creatures. This\nis not true of Green, where the animals are far more alien, but\neven on Green the animals can eat and be eaten both by Blue and\nUrth fauna." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We might note that this is true of the fauna of a number of alien\nworlds in Wolfe texts, from the blue/green pair of FIFTH HEAD to\nthe homeworld(s) of Hehehethor's monsters and the alzabo. I suspect\nWolfe has some point in mind here, though just what it is has, so \nfar, eluded me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is not possible that the Blue/Green system could\nbe gravitationally stable. Ergo, it is recent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not possible _if_ the distances given are accurate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes it is, anything can happen in a four-body system\nlike Sun-Urth-Lune-White fountain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no: if you assume that Blue is more massive than Green, \nthen it _must_ have proportionally greater tidal effects on \nGreen than Green does on Blue. Bring Lune close enough to Urth \nto cause the kind of effects we _do_ have described, and Lune \nwill be deeply, ah, _disturbed_ by massive seismic activity.\nThe sewers of the inhumi city won't be clogged by bodies; \nthey'll be filled with rubble -- the buildings will fall down\nand go boom.\n\nIt is _much_ simpler to believe that the distance given is \nwrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) It is possible that Inhumi are native to Lune\nand lived there when it circled round Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is _nothing_ native to the Moon, but let that\npass. (I find myself wondering about night-gaunts\nagain, though...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1) The large animals of Green\n2) The vast trees of Green" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The trees are specifically mentioned as being **much\nlarger than those on Blue**. Ergo, Green has lower\ngravity than Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would be in the same way that Northern California\nhas lower gravity than Vermont?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-26T08:26:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n\nAn analogy to an outside source, with no citation of the text at\nhand to invite compare with that outside source, hardly constitutes\n\"textual evidence.\" If there's a controlling Biblical analogy, it's\nMoses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the scale of Silk's life, yes. But here are multiple analogies here" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In favor of an analogy to the Ark, I suppose one could adduce Typhon's\nattempt to make himself God; against it, however, one might begin with\nthe highly-minimalist nature of the Ark as vs. the inclusion of many\ncultures aboard the WHORL. Then, too, one can't help but wonder who in\nthis analogy would play a role even vaguely analogous to Noah's ...\nRemora?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mainframe Typhon/Pas and his wife and quarreling family" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, yes. So either we have a totally unexplained shift in huge\nportions of the animal kingdom, to a polyploidy that seems to\nhave no significant ill effect but produces doubled limbs; or\nelse, equally difficult to explain, beasts ranging from elephants\nto crocodiles undergoing mutations that cause their limbs to\ndouble. Either way, it requires a fair amount of explaining.\nPerhaps you'd like to hypothesize some weird retrovirus that\ndoes this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. Lets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The life forms of Blue are nearly all near - analogs of Urth\nforms, with the possible exception of the sea creatures. This\nis not true of Green, where the animals are far more alien, but\neven on Green the animals can eat and be eaten both by Blue and\nUrth fauna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We might note that this is true of the fauna of a number of alien\nworlds in Wolfe texts, from the blue/green pair of FIFTH HEAD to\nthe homeworld(s) of Hehehethor's monsters and the alzabo. I suspect\nWolfe has some point in mind here, though just what it is has, so\nfar, eluded me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor's monsters are far more alien to Urth than are any of the entities on\nGreen or Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, no: if you assume that Blue is more massive than Green,\nthen it _must_ have proportionally greater tidal effects on\nGreen than Green does on Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but this means very little unless Green has world-oceans like Blue.\nIt doesn't (it has a world-forest instead, that is why it is Green). Tidal\neffects depend on the size of the body of water.\n\nEarthquakes? No. The moon is solid from crust to core." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) It is possible that Inhumi are native to Lune\nand lived there when it circled round Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is _nothing_ native to the Moon, but let that\npass. (I find myself wondering about night-gaunts\nagain, though...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha ha. By \"native\" I should have said \"colonised Lune long ago\". But I\nagree it is a stretch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would be in the same way that Northern California\nhas lower gravity than Vermont?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not proof,. but it tends in the direction.\n\n\n\nMy own beliefs on the Green/Blue Lune/Ushas conundrum are complex. It is\na beautiful idea, but I suspect that if it were true we would be seeing many\nmore direct signifiers. There is no *compelling* reason to believe it.\n\nWhat really runs behind it is the Blue World/Green World thematic duality\nthat seems to be a near constant of Wolfe's planetary fiction. And it is\npossible that Wolfe has no clear idea himself, or is leaving his options\nopen.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-26T10:52:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 25/03/2002 18:24:51 Andy Robertson wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nsystem, then, some mechanism must be provided for the motion\naway from the Solar system to somehow bring the WHORL back\nto the Solar system.\n\nIt flew in a circle, as Pas/Typhon intended." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A question.\n\nThe Whorl of the Long Sun produces a facsimilie of gravity through spin.\nOtherwise when we see it there is no other acceleration. Is there (and I\nask because I can't remember) any mention of how the Whorl behaved when\ntraveling? I'm thinking here of AC Clarke's Rama and it's circular sea\nwith one shore higher than the other to prevent the water flooding over\nthe land when Rama is under acceleration.\n\nA linear path is simple enough but a circular one would require\naccelerations in directions other than parallel with the access of the\nWhorl - either constant or periodic. The first suggests some motive force\napplied at an angle to the direction of travel, the latter might be\neffected by an attitudinal adjustment.\n\nIn either case how large a force could be applied without it being\nperceptible to the inhabitants? And is there a mid-trajectory roll-over?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IV. The objection from gravitation\n\nThis has been discussed to death ... but ... it's very hard\nto produce a plausible argument for Green as a satellite of\nBlue (even an escaped satellite) without producing tidal\neffects of a scale that dwarf those described by Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not possible that the Blue/Green system could be gravitationally\nstable. Ergo, it is recent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet the Neighbours have a long history of interaction with the Inhumi.\nErgo the orbital arrangement of Blue and Green must have been stable for\nminimally several thousands of years of that history and potentially for\nperiods sufficient to have impact on the evolutionary development of the\nspecies.\n\nSo we have a contradiction between celestial mechanics and narrative. It's\nfiction, not history, so narrative is our only evidence and it would\nappear that celestial mechanics can go hang. ;-)\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-26T11:08:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 25/03/2002 21:25:30 Andy Robertson wrote:\nIV. The objection from gravitation" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is not possible that the Blue/Green system could\nbe gravitationally stable. Ergo, it is recent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not possible _if_ the distances given are accurate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes it is, anything can happen in a four-body system like\nSun-Urth-Lune-White fountain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh no. The WF aproaches the sun, we see the effects. But once there\nwe're back to a 3 body system.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T17:00:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A question.\n\nThe Whorl of the Long Sun produces a facsimilie of gravity through spin.\nOtherwise when we see it there is no other acceleration. Is there (and\nI\nask because I can't remember) any mention of how the Whorl behaved when\ntraveling? I'm thinking here of AC Clarke's Rama and it's circular sea\nwith one shore higher than the other to prevent the water flooding over\nthe land when Rama is under acceleration.\n\nA linear path is simple enough but a circular one would require\naccelerations in directions other than parallel with the access of the\nWhorl - either constant or periodic. The first suggests some motive\nforce\napplied at an angle to the direction of travel, the latter might be\neffected by an attitudinal adjustment.\n\nIn either case how large a force could be applied without it being\nperceptible to the inhabitants? And is there a mid-trajectory\nroll-over?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The acceleration, either for a straight-line path (speeding up and\nslowing down) or for a curved path, would have to be negligible\ncompared to g (or g on the _Whorl_ if that's different)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "IV. The objection from gravitation\n\nThis has been discussed to death ... but ... it's very hard\nto produce a plausible argument for Green as a satellite of\nBlue (even an escaped satellite) without producing tidal\neffects of a scale that dwarf those described by Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not possible that the Blue/Green system could be gravitationally\nstable. Ergo, it is recent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet the Neighbours have a long history of interaction with the Inhumi.\nErgo the orbital arrangement of Blue and Green must have been stable for\nminimally several thousands of years of that history and potentially for\nperiods sufficient to have impact on the evolutionary development of the\nspecies.\n\nSo we have a contradiction between celestial mechanics and narrative.\nIt's\nfiction, not history, so narrative is our only evidence and it would\nappear that celestial mechanics can go hang. ;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I totally agree. The celestial mechanics doesn't work at all,\nindependent of whether Blue is Ushas or not, and it works only slightly\nbetter if Gagliardo's numbers are wrong." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T17:16:40+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I live a few hours' drive from the giant redwoods of California.\nThe trees of Green do not strike me as a significant argument \nfor low gravity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't the narrator tell Incanto and his dependents that creatures\nbigger than a man live in the *bark* of trees on Green? Unless he's\nexaggerating for effect, I think they're a lot bigger than redwoods,\nand a good argument for lower gravity (but not low enough that you\nneed to relearn how to walk).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T17:33:56+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hartshorn wrote (very cut):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hethor's monsters are far more alien to Urth than are any\nof the entities on Green or Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True; but my point was simply that the alien creatures in tBotNS\nseem to be Urth-compatible enough to live and feed there. Indeed,\nthe degree of compatibility of the alzabo with Urthly life is so\ncomplete and complex as to suggest a strong tendency, in the \nLupiverse, for all life (or \"all life evolved on worlds with free\noxygen and temprature-pressure ranges that permit lots of liquid\nwater and reasonably Urthlike gravity\") to be biochemically \nsimilar.\n\nWhich is, after all, pretty much another convention of SF (or\nat least pulp-descended SF)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but this means very little unless Green has world-oceans\nlike Blue. It doesn't (it has a world-forest instead, that is\nwhy it is Green). Tidal effects depend on the size of the\nbody of water." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm.... three points here.\n\nFirst, it's hard to believe that Urth-like life will work on a\nworld without large bodies of open water. You need a certain basic\nsize of water reserve to keep it all from disappearing into the\natmosphere -- and the hotter the world, the more likely this is to\nbe true, and lower gravity will make the problem worse as more \nof the stuff escapes into space. (Lower gravity also therefore \nmakes the problem of anything as _different_ as the inhumi having\nthe time to evolve on a terraformed Lune that much tougher.)\n\n(OTOH, I have in fairness to point out that there's no particular \nreason to assume that Green is actually hotter than Blue -- Horn \nexperiences a relatively small geographical area of Green; it \ncould easily all be equatorial.)\n\nSecond, if Green is a terraformed Lune, in order for it to be as\nmoist as we're shown, one of two things must be true: either there\n_are_ large bodies of open water, filling the large craters and so\non; or else the people who terraformed it didn't just give it water\nand air, but ran an iron over the whole thing so that there are no\nlow spots where water will gather.\n\nThird, and to my mind most significant, in Wolfe's other major\ngreen/blue system, the green planet most definitely _does_ have\noceans.\n\n\nSo then I read this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My own beliefs on the Green/Blue Lune/Ushas conundrum are complex. \nIt is a beautiful idea, but I suspect that if it were true we would\nbe seeing many more direct signifiers. There is no *compelling* \nreason to believe it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which, really, is my main point. There is no compelling reason -- \nno real textual evidence -- beyond it being a \"beautiful idea.\" \nMarc has been fighting for it, primarly because it _does_ offer\nresolution to a number of questions, but there's no significant\ntextual evidence _for_ it. It's a huge hypothetical, that requires\na number of other totally unsubstantiated hypotheticals (like the\nretrovirus I flippantly tossed off and you accepted so blandly) \nto make it work. Given that, I can't accept it short of a \n\"smoking gun\" bit of textual evidence or a clear statement from\nWolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What really runs behind it is the Blue World/Green World\nthematic duality that seems to be a near constant of Wolfe's\nplanetary fiction. And it is possible that Wolfe has no \nclear idea himself, or is leaving his options open." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing behind it, of course, is that Wolfe likes to create\nsystems with two planets that he can set in contrast, and this\nis the most plausible pair of \"themes\" for worlds where humans\ncan reasonably live.\n\nBut I agree that there's also something more going on in the\nback of Wolfe's mind, probably where he himself can't see it.\nThis is a problem for the sort of critic who likes to apply\npsychoanalytic methods and other such mumbojumbo; I will leave\nit to them." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T17:41:19+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Malthouse interjects a bit of realism to the discussion:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... we have a contradiction between celestial mechanics and\nnarrative. It's fiction, not history, so narrative is our \nonly evidence and it would appear that celestial mechanics\ncan go hang. ;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bravo. \n\nThe play's the thing -- or, rather, the novel is. Wolfe may \nbe following yet another basic convention of science fiction: \nwhen physical reality conflicts with a compelling storyline, \nand you can't reconcile the two, wave your hands and make the\nphysical reality go away. It's all about the story." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T18:08:22+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doesn't the narrator tell Incanto and his dependents that\ncreatures bigger than a man live in the *bark* of trees on\nGreen? Unless he's exaggerating for effect, I think they're\na lot bigger than redwoods," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, more simply, trees with very thick bark to protect the\nheartwood from giant termites (or whatever).\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T21:18:33+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) contra Summa contra Marcus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDoesn't the narrator tell Incanto and his dependents that\ncreatures bigger than a man live in the *bark* of trees on\nGreen? Unless he's exaggerating for effect, I think they're\na lot bigger than redwoods," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or, more simply, trees with very thick bark to protect the\nheartwood from giant termites (or whatever)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's *very* thick bark. How much room does something bigger than a\nman need to live (not \"sleep\" or \"den\")--ten feet? The biggest\nsequoia is about 26.5 feet thick \n. That\nsuggests ten feet of bark on each side and 6 feet of sapwood and\nheartwood? Possible, I guess, but I took the comment to mean that\nGreen's trees are to ours as people are to bark beetles; that is, the\ntrees on Green do grow high, to thousands of feet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- He later wrote:\nFor such a \njerryrigged theory to be acceptable, it requires some kind of \n\"smoking gun\" _textual_ evidence" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI just want to mention that the word is \"jury-rigged\". \"Jury-rigged\"!\nThat's an ENORMOUSLY important point. :-)\n\n(Unfortunately, there is a word \"jerry-built\".)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }