{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3095", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3095, "subject": "redux on objections", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-03-26T17:53:24+00:00", "last": "2002-03-27T11:21:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-26T17:53:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) redux on objections", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is one more thing that bugs me: has the Short Sun narrator been gone TWO \nYEARS or THREE YEARS? you can't get the same number in the text. Conjunction \nhas happened. More time dilation? How long has Horn been gone?\n\nSomeone (Blattid, right?) posted a huge list of objections. I mostly agree \nwith Andy's defenses.\nI NEVER posited a space warp that the whorl flew into - i thought it flew in a \ncircle. As far as I know, you can control direction in a space ship or you are \ndoomed to an eternity of going forward.\n\nPolyploidy is instant speciation - that's the whole point. It can spring up \nin one generation, and disappear in one generation. No time needs to pass to \ncreate new species.\n\nI NEVER said that Blue was Urth of the past - it is Ushas of a somewhat \ndistant future - enough time for the trees to kill the colonists on Lune, come \nto Urth, kill everyone there and die out or \"move on\" in one (or a few) \ngeneration(s) before the whorl comes back to recolonize the planet. So many \nthings are the same (flooded planet, wall underwater, analog species) And I'm \nsorry, hybridization is SOOO textually prevalent, as is man to flower imagery.\nI HAVE posited a prototype green man - who isn't green yet. He can't feed in \nthe winter, he doesn't eat, and he has normal limbs. Who is he? Your humble \nnarrator Silk. and he has wounds from branches - he runs into a tree as soon \nas Hyacinth dies.\n\nAs I've said before, the moon (green) is in an oscillating, self correcting \norbit around blue - it can always be seen in the sky. It was pulled from its \ndecayed orbit by the new sun. Green orbits Blue in oscillation, sometimes \nclose, sometimes far, but that has nothing to do with its orbital period.\n\nalso, there is every indication that the children of polyploid species are not \nthe same. Look at the corn - the second generation is weaker and even a \ndifferent color. Indeed, a return to the haploid state is necessary for \nchildren to be viable - and this is what we have in the life cycle of the \ninhumu, clearly delineated in the text. If the Neighbors go a generation or \ntwo, perhaps they will lose those excess limbs. (If they can regain fertility \nat all, because hybrids are notoriously infertile).\nAlso, the inhumu do not gain excess limbs because they do not instantly create \na new species: they are simple sexual producers who feast on blood, save it, \nand then incorporate that DNA into their children. That is different than the \ntrees instant consumption and recombination. They are different species \nworking on the same terraformed principles.\n\nAnd Gene wolfe sets up the mystery of the vanished people as something that \ncan be solved: Silk/Horn claims that his son already knows where the vanished \npeople went and where they came from, but that it would be better if \"he \nfigured it out for himself\", which implies that a reader of the text should \nbe able to figure it out, too.\n\nMarc" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-03-26T20:25:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) redux on objections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc wrote:\nHere is one more thing that bugs me: has the Short Sun narrator been gone" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TWO YEARS or THREE YEARS? you can't get the same number in the text.\nConjunction has happened. More time dilation? How long has Horn been gone?<<\n\nAs I said before, three years, at the time of Blanko's war. (IGJ, 294)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I've said before, the moon (green) is in an oscillating, self\ncorrecting orbit around blue - it can always be seen in the sky. It was\npulled from its decayed orbit by the new sun. Green orbits Blue in\noscillation, sometimes close, sometimes far, but that has nothing to do with\nits orbital period.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Green is _not_ always visible in Blue's sky.\n\n \"Night had come already to the eastern sky, scattering the short suns of\nother whorls across its black velvet. Soon Green would rise, almost a second\nsun, yet baleful as a curse . . .\" (Exodus, 383)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T20:43:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) redux on objections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Someone (Blattid, right?) posted a huge list of objections. I\nmostly agree with Andy's defenses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that was me. And some of the defenses were good, but miss the\npoint -- which, however, Andy himself _does_ get: that (in his own\nwords) \"there is no *compelling* reason to believe\" the Blue=Urth\ntheory. \n\nYou have a very pretty theory, which however requires a great deal \nof defending -- that is, your hypothesis requires a significant \nnumber of related hypotheses to make it feasible. For such a \njerryrigged theory to be acceptable, it requires some kind of \n\"smoking gun\" _textual_ evidence -- some place where the author\nis unambiguously (or, well, as unambiguous as anything ever gets\nin Wolfe) pointing us at it. And while the whole hybridization thing\nis clearly tremendously important, it isn't a smoking gun for this.\n\nConsider, though, that most of your theory works perfectly well\n_without_ adding the \"Blue = Urth\" hypothesis. I still am less than\nconvinced that the Narrator is a tree that becomes a Neighbor, takes\nover Horn's life, and gets transmigrated into Silk's body, but by\nitself it's worthy of consideration; it's only piling \"Blue = Urth\"\non top of it that it becomes top-heavy and collapses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I NEVER posited a space warp that the whorl flew into " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My apologies. I thought someone did -- I was pretty sure this\nwas your explanation of how the Old Sun could be visible as a\nstar from the Grue system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Polyploidy is instant speciation - that's the whole point. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if it is transmissible. Highly questionable. And even more\nquestionable that it would arise uniformly among humans, \ncrocodilians, and elephants, in a way that completely pushes\nthe \"old\" species out of existence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I NEVER said that Blue was Urth of the past " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, someone else (I don't recall who) suggested that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hybridization is SOOO textually prevalent, as is man to flower imagery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely; this stuff is important. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I HAVE posited a prototype green man - who isn't green yet. He\ncan't feed in the winter, he doesn't eat, and he has normal limbs.\nWho is he? Your humble narrator Silk. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmmm... I think that, like Blue=Urth, this is unnecessary for \nyour more general hypothesis (and indeed, if Blue =/= Urth, the\nwhole question of the \"green man future\" is irrelevant. No doubt,\nan eight-legged irrelevant.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and he has wounds from branches - he runs into a tree as soon \nas Hyacinth dies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Completely conjectural, of course, and unneeded ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I've said before, the moon (green) is in an oscillating, \nself correcting orbit around blue " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What on _Earth_ (or in space) is a \"self correcting orbit?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, the inhumu do not gain excess limbs because they do not\ninstantly create a new species: they are simple sexual producers\nwho feast on blood, save it, and then incorporate that DNA into\ntheir children. That is different than the trees instant\nconsumption and recombination. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a fussy point. One male inhumu; one female inhuma; many inhumi,\nmale or female or both.\n\nAnd weren't you saying earlier that the inhumi _were_ the trees?\nOr, no, that was the Neighbors. I'm so confused!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are different species working on the same terraformed\nprinciples." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess the biggest question here would be \"why in Hell would\nanyone 'terraform' (I assume you mean \"genetically engineered\nprinciples\") species to do this? \"H'mmm. Alzabos, notules,\nsalamanders ... naaah, there aren't enough monsters in the\nuniverse to really threaten our species' survival. Hey, I know! \nI'll create a bunch of monsters that incorporate the DNA of\ntheir victims and absorb memory! And the trees can go all\npolyploid to have extra limbs!\" H'mmmm. No, I really have a \nlot of trouble imagining anyone's motives for this..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Gene wolfe sets up the mystery of the vanished people as\nsomething that can be solved: Silk/Horn claims that his son\nalready knows where the vanished people went and where they\ncame from, but that it would be better if \"he figured it out\nfor himself\", which implies that a reader of the text should \nbe able to figure it out, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite likely. That doesn't mean that this is the answer.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-03-27T11:21:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) redux on objections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 26/03/2002 20:43:49 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAs I've said before, the moon (green) is in an oscillating,\nself correcting orbit around blue" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What on _Earth_ (or in space) is a \"self correcting orbit?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Big engines, feedback sensors, hidden computers. Think Microsoft\nAutomatic Update; and probably just as reliable. ;-)\n\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }