{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3096", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3096, "subject": "eponyms as saints", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-03-26T19:09:01+00:00", "last": "2002-03-27T21:46:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T19:09:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) eponyms as saints", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman quoted and wrote:\nSeems to me that real-world eponyms are not devices to tell time, but\nby-products of time and culture. If the word is still in use, then the\neponym remains: our busts of the eponyms would include de Sade,\nQuisling,\nBowdler, et ali. If in a hundred years we no longer used the words\nsadism,\nquisling, and bowdlerize, then those busts would be removed, the\neponyms\nforgotten along with their \"words.\" (Note the memorial/funereal tinct\nhere.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is interesting, but my guess is that the eponyms are saints, like\nthe eponyms of San Francisco, Marylebone, people named James, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's funny, because I don't normally think of the people of the\nCommonwealth having saints (granted that they are all named after Catholic\nsaints, but I have never seen this as a literal sign of the saints being\nresurrected, as James Jordan did in his early interview with Wolfe, but\nrather as a clever trick to get big history and alien-ness in one coherent,\nconvenient package), so I used non-saint eponyms.\n\nBut of course you are right, they =do= have saints (well one: \"St. Amand\"),\nso the busts become perhaps a sequence of saints and commoners. From high\nto low, altitude-wise at least.\n\nStill, another point I wanted to transmit was that while Nessus is\n\"eternal,\" the quarters of the city are definitely not: they have a rather\nbrief lifespan, in fact, and then they are abandoned to ruin as the city\nmoves North. So the busts, despite their seeming antiquity, are not all\nthat old, really, and were placed there by recent architects for recent\ntastes. (I mean, it isn't like they are as alien in culture/distant in\ntime as Etruscan busts in medieval Italy.) With this, I would guess that\nthe eponyms are known rather than unknown; and since Severian's time seems\nto be at a low-tide for churches, I suspect the eponyms to be more like\nguillotine, gerrymander, and shyster than St. Agia (although that would've\nmade a neat moment!).\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T22:38:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) eponyms as saints", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nJerry Friedman quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Seems to me that real-world eponyms are not devices to tell time, but\nby-products of time and culture. If the word is still in use, then\nthe\neponym remains: our busts of the eponyms would include de Sade,\nQuisling,\nBowdler, et ali. If in a hundred years we no longer used the words\nsadism,\nquisling, and bowdlerize, then those busts would be removed, the\neponyms\nforgotten along with their \"words.\" (Note the memorial/funereal\ntinct\nhere.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is interesting, but my guess is that the eponyms are saints, like\nthe eponyms of San Francisco, Marylebone, people named James, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's funny, because I don't normally think of the people of the\nCommonwealth having saints (granted that they are all named after\nCatholic\nsaints, but I have never seen this as a literal sign of the saints being\nresurrected, as James Jordan did in his early interview with Wolfe, but\nrather as a clever trick to get big history and alien-ness in one\ncoherent,\nconvenient package), so I used non-saint eponyms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean there's a Saint Baldanders and a Saint Foila?\n\nBut for Pete's sake and heavens to Betsy, if all the people of the\nCommonwealth are named after Catholic saints, isn't it obvious who\nthe eponyms are?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But of course you are right, they =do= have saints (well one: \"St.\nAmand\"),\nso the busts become perhaps a sequence of saints and commoners. From\nhigh\nto low, altitude-wise at least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember St. Amand. From UotNS?\n\nThere's Holy Katharine (sp?), though, and it seems to me that at one\npoint Severian mentions Barbara as the patron of soldiers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, another point I wanted to transmit was that while Nessus is\n\"eternal,\" the quarters of the city are definitely not: they have a\nrather\nbrief lifespan, in fact, and then they are abandoned to ruin as the city\nmoves North. So the busts, despite their seeming antiquity, are not all\nthat old, really, and were placed there by recent architects for recent\ntastes. (I mean, it isn't like they are as alien in culture/distant in\ntime as Etruscan busts in medieval Italy.) With this, I would guess\nthat\nthe eponyms are known rather than unknown; and since Severian's time\nseems\nto be at a low-tide for churches, I suspect the eponyms to be more like\nguillotine, gerrymander, and shyster than St. Agia (although that\nwould've\nmade a neat moment!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "St. Agia of the Knife? Sorry, wrong series.\n\nBut we don't put up statues of Lynch, Boycott, or E. Clerihew Bentley. \nThough a monument to the unknown eponym of \"jerry-built\" might be\nnice. (Okay, that's the last time I'll mention that, I promise.)\n\nJerry Friedman is not named after the first abbot of Mayo." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-26T23:18:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) eponyms as saints", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nYou mean there's a Saint Baldanders and a Saint Foila?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now you're just wise-cracking, or you are the new guard to come on duty in\ninterrogating. I've been through that thread simply too many times.\nBaldanders is a bad guy, as signified by his fiction-derived name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But for Pete's sake and heavens to Betsy, if all the people of the\nCommonwealth are named after Catholic saints, isn't it obvious who\nthe eponyms are?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, forgive me, it is not. I have never heard of saints categorized as\neponyms for giving their names to countless individuals--as opposed to\ngiving their name \"to a tribe, nation, process, product, etc.\" (Name for a\ncity, which you gave before, seemed close to tribe/nation, athough greatly\ndiluted.) If it is clear to you then that is enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "St. Agia of the Knife? Sorry, wrong series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "=Saint Austregildis=, du-uh!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we don't put up statues of Lynch, Boycott, or E. Clerihew Bentley." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hugos, Edgars, Nebulas, and Oscars are halfway there. Maybe \"Sons of\nLiberty\" and \"Knights of Columbus\" and stuff like that. Elks Lodge.\nFreemasonry. Still, I would agree that we don't put up statues of the\neponyms! It seems like a practice from the ancient world.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-27T21:46:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) eponyms as saints", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean there's a Saint Baldanders and a Saint Foila?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now you're just wise-cracking, or you are the new guard to come on duty\nin\ninterrogating. I've been through that thread simply too many times.\nBaldanders is a bad guy, as signified by his fiction-derived name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must've been absent that day. But now that you've mentioned it and\nI've spent a little time at a saint site, I'll look in the archives\nif I want more information." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But for Pete's sake and heavens to Betsy, if all the people of the\nCommonwealth are named after Catholic saints, isn't it obvious who\nthe eponyms are?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, forgive me, it is not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll forgive you if you'll forgive me. Or should I forgive you first,\nsince I actually said something obnoxious? Which is to say--sorry\nabout that \"isn't it obvious\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have never heard of saints categorized as\neponyms for giving their names to countless individuals--as opposed to\ngiving their name \"to a tribe, nation, process, product, etc.\" (Name\nfor a\ncity, which you gave before, seemed close to tribe/nation, athough\ngreatly\ndiluted.) If it is clear to you then that is enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Etc.\" can cover a lot of ground, though you're right that \"eponym\"\nnormally doesn't extend to the person someone is named after. On the\nother hand, if there's a canonical list of names (which seems suggested\nthough not proven by Wolfe's use of saints' names, including the\napparently well-known pairs Agilus-Agia and Severian-Severa), all of\nwhich are names of admired people of the past (not suggested anywhere\nthat I know of), and if you didn't want to call those admired people\nsaints, what would you call them?\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But we don't put up statues of Lynch, Boycott, or E. Clerihew Bentley." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hugos, Edgars, Nebulas, and Oscars are halfway there. Maybe \"Sons of\nLiberty\" and \"Knights of Columbus\" and stuff like that. Elks Lodge.\nFreemasonry. Still, I would agree that we don't put up statues of the\neponyms! It seems like a practice from the ancient world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Just Hugos, Edgars, Oscars, and the K. of C.)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }