{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3100", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3100, "subject": "Seventeen", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-03-27T17:01:30+00:00", "last": "2002-03-28T05:44:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-27T17:01:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently found out that another SF writer is enamored of the number\nseventeen: apparently most of Steven Brust's novels have 17 chapters\n(starting with the first Dragaera novel, which features a society with 17\n\"Houses\").\n\nSo what is it about 17 that Wolfe and Brust (and others?) might latch on\nto it? That it is prime? Fondness for magazines like Sassy and YM?\n\nAre there older traditions that see importance in the number 17 (like\nChristians with 3, 7, and 12?)\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-27T17:08:13+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, 17 is a big number for Discordians (also 5 and 23).\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Michael Straight [mailto:straight at email.unc.edu]\nSent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:02 AM\nTo: urth\nSubject: (urth) Seventeen\n\n\n\nI recently found out that another SF writer is enamored of the number\nseventeen: apparently most of Steven Brust's novels have 17 chapters\n(starting with the first Dragaera novel, which features a society with 17\n\"Houses\").\n\nSo what is it about 17 that Wolfe and Brust (and others?) might latch on\nto it? That it is prime? Fondness for magazines like Sassy and YM?\n\nAre there older traditions that see importance in the number 17 (like\nChristians with 3, 7, and 12?)\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "San Martin, Gonzalo", "address": "sanmarting at logica.com" }, "date": "2002-03-27T17:12:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See http://pages.globetrotter.net/sdesr/nu17.htm for a multitude of\nsignificances (biblical and otherwise) of the number seventeen.\n\nGonzalo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]\nSent: 27 March 2002 17:08\nTo: 'urth at urth.net'\nSubject: RE: (urth) Seventeen\n\n\nWell, 17 is a big number for Discordians (also 5 and 23).\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Michael Straight [mailto:straight at email.unc.edu]\nSent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:02 AM\nTo: urth\nSubject: (urth) Seventeen\n\n\n\nI recently found out that another SF writer is enamored of the number\nseventeen: apparently most of Steven Brust's novels have 17 chapters\n(starting with the first Dragaera novel, which features a \nsociety with 17\n\"Houses\").\n\nSo what is it about 17 that Wolfe and Brust (and others?) \nmight latch on\nto it? That it is prime? Fondness for magazines like Sassy and YM?\n\nAre there older traditions that see importance in the number 17 (like\nChristians with 3, 7, and 12?)\n\n-Rostrum " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-27T17:18:15+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWell, 17 is a big number for Discordians (also 5 and 23)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. Googling Discordians and 17 found this quote:\n\nThe crazies aside, though, it's the utterly boring, uncreative people who\nsee a stupid theme and latch on then run it into the ground that are the\nworst. OMG THAT LICENSE PLATE HAS A 23 IN IT! HAIL ERIS! I remember\nCrosley Bendix talking about how if you concentrate on a certain number\nhard enough, you'll start to notice it everywhere. As a side note, he said\n\"Try it with your favorite number. If you don't have a favorite number,\nyou can use mine - 17.\" And 17 is my favorite number, which caused me to\nbe surprised and tingly. But I have yet to say HAIL CROSLEY BENDIX or\notherwise engage in jackassery. Well, jackassery related to that event, at\nleast. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-27T17:26:45+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, San Martin, Gonzalo wrote:\nSee http://pages.globetrotter.net/sdesr/nu17.htm for a multitude of\nsignificances (biblical and otherwise) of the number seventeen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks! From that page:\n\nShakespeare wrote 17 comedies.\nBeethoven wrote 17 quartets. \nThe age of the universe is about 10^17 seconds.\nThere are 17 muscles in the tongue.\nThe Japanese poetry Haiku contains 17 syllables.\nThe mass of Neptune is 17 times that of the Earth.\nThe girls having 17 years old, have on average 17 square meters of skin.\n\nNo wonder Wolfe likes that number!\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-03-27T19:14:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that 17 was an unlucky number to the Romans, and they got it from\nthe Etruscans. (Robert Graves, I, CLAUDIUS, probably.)\n\nThe Group of 17 (Ascian leadership in TBOTNS) is said by Wolfe to be based\non the typical number of members in a Soviet politburo, iirc.\n\nThe \"Seventeen Stones\" called out at the Sanguinary Fields (TBOTNS) is very\nlikely a coded allusion to the Group of 17.\n\nAt the more personal level, Gene Wolfe was in the first batallion of the\n17th Infantry in Korea (LETTERS HOME, as I understand it).\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-03-27T21:57:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\n\nI recently found out that another SF writer is enamored of the number\nseventeen: apparently most of Steven Brust's novels have 17 chapters\n(starting with the first Dragaera novel, which features a society with\n17 \"Houses\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what looks like the full story on Brust and 17, see \n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what is it about 17 that Wolfe and Brust (and others?) might latch on\nto it? That it is prime? Fondness for magazines like Sassy and YM?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In college, I took a course in mathematical logic from Paul Benacerraf.\nWhenever he did a numerical example in his lucid and interesting\nlectures, he would say something like, \"Take an arbitrary number--\nseventeen, for instance.\" Finally a student asked him why it was\nalways 17, and he gave a parodic proof that 17 is the most arbitrary\nnumber. So it shows up in all kinds of strange places.\n\nBy the way, I like Steven Brust's sf a lot, even though it's not much\nlike Wolfe's.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-03-27T22:46:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:12 AM 3/27/2002, you wrote:\nSee http://pages.globetrotter.net/sdesr/nu17.htm for a multitude of\nsignificances (biblical and otherwise) of the number seventeen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Correction to the above: The 17 nations are in Acts 2, not Romans 2.\n Otherwise, there are a number of occurances of 17 in the Bible, \nparticularly in the Psalter. Books 3 and 4 of the Psalter each have 17 \npsalms, for instance. But as with the 17 nations, these occurances are not \nobvious unless you take the time to count or calculate. The 153 fishes of \nJohn 21 are the triangular of 17, which for those of you who don't know, is \n17+16+15+14...+1. Lay out 17 dots, then below it 16, below that 15, etc., \nand you get a triangle. That's ancient math, not \"modern math\"! (666, btw, \nis the triangular of 36 [=6x6].) Cool, huh?\n The number adds 7 and 10, both of which are numbers of \ncompleteness or totality in the bible. Added together, they form a symbol \nof complete completeness.\n Who knows where Wolfe \"got\" it? He might have been thinking of 17 \nas 7 + 10, as above; or something else entirely. Unless he's a more avid \nBible scholar than I think he is, I doubt if anything else from the Bible \nis in view. (Though I bet he'd really get off on those triangular numbers!)\n\nPatera Nutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-03-28T05:44:51+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Jordan " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "See http://pages.globetrotter.net/sdesr/nu17.htm for a multitude of\nsignificances (biblical and otherwise) of the number seventeen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Correction to the above: The 17 nations are in Acts 2, not\nRomans 2.\n Otherwise, there are a number of occurances of 17 in the\nBible, particularly in the Psalter. Books 3 and 4 of the Psalter each\nhave 17 ps The number adds 7 and 10, both of which are numbers\nof completeness or totality in the bible. Added together, they form a\nsymbol of compl Who knows where Wolfe \"got\" it? He might have\nbeen thinking of 17 as 7 + 10, as above; or something else entirely.\nUnless he's Patera Nutria" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThere is a touch of 17 in the MIT-centric engineering culture:\n\n< http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/random-numbers.html >" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }