{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3107", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3107, "subject": "system of langauge", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-03-30T00:26:58+00:00", "last": "2002-03-30T14:41:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-03-30T00:26:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) system of langauge", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if many people have thought about Horn's life story as a semiotic \nsystem that Silk uses to reconstruct himself, but if you want to make a case \nabout the universal application of stories even if they aren't true, it could \nbe a pretty good way to look at the linguistic system in the Short Sun Books. \nLet's assume for this case the minimal supernatural stuff has gone on:\nSilk is a shattered man who needs to heal his psyche somehow. He steals the \nlanguage system of a convenient fellow, someone who has died but still has a \nhome and family left to write back to. He assumes that man's identity, and \nthen seeks to create a meaningful assertion of his identity using prepackaged \nlangauge that does not belong to him: the story of the search for Silk turns \ninto a method and a process through which Silk can find himself again- by \ntelling the story. He attempts to defer death for Horn as long as he can (I \nam paralleling the drive for the end of plot with the Thanatos syndrome of \nFreud here). The plot exists for as long as he can stave back an account of \ndeath from the text. When Horn TRULY dies, he must face up to his own \nidentity - and he needs the story as extended therapy.\n\nIn this case, interpretive relativism is completely irrelevant: whatever \nmeaning Silk wants to ascribe to his own life, he can. Through the story of \nHorn. In other words, even if Horn's story had nothing to do with Silk, Silk \ncould still meet himself in the system of language through constructing his \nown identity.\n\nAs a schema for how fantastic literature might apply to real life, I find this \nparticular picture kind of interesting. It admits that language can be stolen \nfrom its original context, abused, and misinterpreted; it also allows a \nconstruction of self-identity through an assumed plot for anyone involved in \nthat theft.\n\nPerhaps the Book of the Short Sun illustrates how a closed system of language \ncan still have a universal application even after it is (indeed, especially \nafter it is) stolen from its original context (in this case, from the mouth of \nthe real Horn).\n\nIn other words, the text presents a model for overcoming the particular \nconstraints and limitations of a fantastic story in order to reapply it in a \nuseful way for a reader/analyst. Which might be a nice way to justify the \nstudy of fantastic literature in school. Even though it's not real - it can \nstill be real.\n\nI thought I'd fool you all by changing up my theme temporarily on the Short \nSun Books. Does anybody else like this \"therapeutic\" approach to looking at \nSilk's claim to be Horn?\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-03-30T00:30:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) system of langauge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc,\n\nThis is amazing. I will definitely be looking at this when I reread\n\"Short Sun.\" This may be the most useful model of these books I've \nseen to date, and it seems to have tremendous explanatory power wrt\nthe texts as I remember them.\n\nBravo. Bravissimo!\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: maa32 [mailto:maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu]\nSent: Friday, March 29, 2002 4:27 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) system of langauge\n\n\nI don't know if many people have thought about Horn's life story as a\nsemiotic \nsystem that Silk uses to reconstruct himself, but if you want to make a case\n\nabout the universal application of stories even if they aren't true, it\ncould \nbe a pretty good way to look at the linguistic system in the Short Sun\nBooks. \nLet's assume for this case the minimal supernatural stuff has gone on:\nSilk is a shattered man who needs to heal his psyche somehow. He steals the\n\nlanguage system of a convenient fellow, someone who has died but still has a\n\nhome and family left to write back to. He assumes that man's identity, and \nthen seeks to create a meaningful assertion of his identity using\nprepackaged \nlangauge that does not belong to him: the story of the search for Silk turns\n\ninto a method and a process through which Silk can find himself again- by \ntelling the story. He attempts to defer death for Horn as long as he can (I\n\nam paralleling the drive for the end of plot with the Thanatos syndrome of \nFreud here). The plot exists for as long as he can stave back an account of\n\ndeath from the text. When Horn TRULY dies, he must face up to his own \nidentity - and he needs the story as extended therapy.\n\nIn this case, interpretive relativism is completely irrelevant: whatever \nmeaning Silk wants to ascribe to his own life, he can. Through the story of \nHorn. In other words, even if Horn's story had nothing to do with Silk,\nSilk \ncould still meet himself in the system of language through constructing his \nown identity.\n\nAs a schema for how fantastic literature might apply to real life, I find\nthis \nparticular picture kind of interesting. It admits that language can be\nstolen \nfrom its original context, abused, and misinterpreted; it also allows a \nconstruction of self-identity through an assumed plot for anyone involved in\n\nthat theft.\n\nPerhaps the Book of the Short Sun illustrates how a closed system of\nlanguage \ncan still have a universal application even after it is (indeed, especially \nafter it is) stolen from its original context (in this case, from the mouth\nof \nthe real Horn).\n\nIn other words, the text presents a model for overcoming the particular \nconstraints and limitations of a fantastic story in order to reapply it in a\n\nuseful way for a reader/analyst. Which might be a nice way to justify the \nstudy of fantastic literature in school. Even though it's not real - it can\n\nstill be real.\n\nI thought I'd fool you all by changing up my theme temporarily on the Short \nSun Books. Does anybody else like this \"therapeutic\" approach to looking at\n\nSilk's claim to be Horn?\n\nMarc Aramini" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Ingram", "address": "j_ingram at mac.com" }, "date": "2002-03-30T14:41:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) system of langauge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that examining the force of language in the Short Sun series \nwould be extremely productive, but I would accentuate different \nelements. My predisposition is towards a rhetorical rather than a \nsemiotic analysis; I would emphasize a movement from the text outward to \nreaders. Before outlining what I mean by this, I want to go through \nparts of Marc's post to detail areas of agreement and disagreement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's assume for this case the minimal supernatural stuff has gone on:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this assumption is helpful, as it dismisses most of the \nstory. Retaining the semiotic analysis along with much of the plot \nseems more productive. If we become too suspicious of the text, we \ncould end up reducing the whole narrative to a Freudian melodrama (he \nisn't really Silk, he just identifies with Silk as a 'transitional \nobject'; he doesn't really encounter inhumi, he's just worried about his \nego boundaries; he doesn't actually ever leave Urth (or earth), he's \njust dreaming about a messianic figure who defeats the evil tyrant \nTyphon (or his father, who he wants to become--thus the identification \nwith patera silk))." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He assumes that man's identity, and then seeks to create a meaningful \nassertion of his identity using prepackaged langauge that does not \nbelong to him:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an interesting way to look at Silk's gradual emergence from \nHorn's persona. I've been meaning to chart the gradual shifts in \nSilkhorn's conversational style as he becomes more and more like Silk. \nThis is difficult, since our initial view of Silk is mediated through \nHorn's writing. Interesting irony, though: in TBOLS, we think we're \nreading Silk when we're really reading Horn's take on Silk; whereas in \nTBOSS we're reading what we think is Horn, but turns out to be Silk \nwriting and speaking through Horn.\n\nIt seems like some sort of semiotic analysis is *necessary* to sort \nthrough the various personae, and the frame of a \"language that is not \none's own\" would prove quite helpful to that end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the story of the search for Silk turns\ninto a method and a process through which Silk can find himself again- \nby\ntelling the story. He attempts to defer death for Horn as long as he \ncan (I\nam paralleling the drive for the end of plot with the Thanatos syndrome \nof\nFreud here). The plot exists for as long as he can stave back an \naccount of\ndeath from the text. When Horn TRULY dies, he must face up to his own\nidentity - and he needs the story as extended therapy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Fraud's theory of the death drive helps much to sort this \nout; it seems to be more of a struggle for recognition. Silk/Horn \ndenies the recognition of others, continually maintaining his identity \nas Horn despite 'clear' evidence to the contrary. Horn dies--his \nphysical death in the lander is conceded in the text, I believe, long \nbefore the narrator gives up on being Horn--and yet maintains that he is \nHorn for some time. Eventually, he recognizes himself and begins to \nmourn in earnest. This sequence does more to critique Freud than to \nsupport him (at least, the Freud of \"Mourning and Melancholia\" and \nperhaps even of _Civilization and its Discontents_).\n\nStill, viewing the narrative as a process of therapy sheds valuable \nlight on the story. It also could provide an interesting twist on \ntheories involving the \"death of the author\"-- cf. Foucault (the 'Silk \nfunction').\n\n[tangent: the projection of memories and habits from one body to another \nraises important questions about identity. SF is a privileged site for \nthinking about such issues, and the theme of possession woven throughout \nthe short sun and long sun series has long intrigued me. For isntance: \nwhy can't Pas or anyone else download their personality into more than \none vessel at a time? If the 'soul/self' is singular in some way, then \nhow could these personalities have been uploaded without expunging the \nsoul/self from the original?]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a schema for how fantastic literature might apply to real life, I \nfind this\nparticular picture kind of interesting. It admits that language can be \nstolen\nfrom its original context, abused, and misinterpreted; it also allows a\nconstruction of self-identity through an assumed plot for anyone \ninvolved in\nthat theft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Language is always adapted and altered; struggles over proper \nrepresentation and proper context create standards that, later, come to \nseem natural (perhaps akin to Bloom's \"anxiety of influence\"). \nNarratives certainly do help us to make sense of who we are, and shape \nthe use and development of technology.\n\nI think individual therapy is less salient than other themes in TBOSS, \nhowever:\n\nthe sense of wonder and mystery evoked by Wolfe's narrative form,\nsilk as role model (the content of his message, the form he uses to \nconvince people, and his dynamic balance of love, eloquence, and prowess \nin battle),\nthe ethical relation to the Other evoked by the 'inhumi problem',\nproperty relations and representations of ineffective components of \nsocial orders,\nimagination (still quite muddled for me), and, perhaps most important \n(grin),\n\n*hybridity*\n\nThese aspects of the books, I would argue, leave traces in attentive \nreaders" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the Book of the Short Sun illustrates how a closed system of \nlanguage\ncan still have a universal application even after it is (indeed, \nespecially\nafter it is) stolen from its original context (in this case, from the \nmouth of\nthe real Horn)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quibbles: I'm not sure how language can be a 'closed system' or how any \ncontext or origin can be pure (e.g. who or what is the \"real\" Horn, and \nhow can we tell without changing that representation of the real?).\n\n(Well, perhaps a self-caused being could have a pure origin, but that \nisn't sufficient to allow a pure context for interpretative access)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In other words, the text presents a model for overcoming the particular\nconstraints and limitations of a fantastic story in order to reapply it \nin a\nuseful way for a reader/analyst. Which might be a nice way to justify \nthe\nstudy of fantastic literature in school. Even though it's not real - \nit can\nstill be real." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good way of putting it, though I still favor the centrifugal approach \nover the centripetal. I balk at debunking Silk's eventual identity with \nHorn, but agree that an approach combining therapeutic, hermeneutic, and \nsemiotic\nmoments has considerable value.\n\nThanks for these insights, Marc\n\nSepia\n\nP.S. I agree that speculative fiction can be quite useful in the \nclassroom, but I also fear that assigning any book makes it far less \nenjoyable, and subverts much that is valuable about reading the \nfantastic (\"What do we need to know about astral projection for the \nmidterm?\" \"Will you grade us down if we argue in our paper that the \nprotagonist isn't a tree?\")" } ] } ] }