{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3141", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3141, "subject": "Wash Post article", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-04-11T04:41:32+00:00", "last": "2002-04-12T13:13:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-11T04:41:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wash Post article", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to Marc, Dan'l, and Rostrum for their responses\nto my article. GW himself likes it (but then he would)\nand Rosemary Wolfe apparently plans to distribute\ncopies of it at the World Horror Convention (starting\nshortly.) It's also at WHC, of course, that the\nWolfe/Gaiman chapbook, WALKING TOUR OF THE SHAMBLES,\nshould first be available.\n\nThe matter of 5HC as entry point into Wolfe: yes, it's\na difficult and dispiriting book; but where else can\none find Wolfe at full power within a single novel?\nPEACE, yes, but that's equally challenging. 5HC is\nperforce the best one-volume introduction to Wolfe's\nSF oeuvre.\n\nAnd 5HC's place in the Briah Cycle: apart from certain\ncorrespondences Robert Borski has noted (like\n\"starcrossers\"), there's nothing overt to tie it to\nthe universe of Severian. BUT: in the context of the\nwhole Urth/Whorl series, there is too much resonance\nwith 5HC to be ignored. Three double world\nsystems--Urth/Lune, St Croix/St Anne, and\nBlue/Green--are in close thematic correspondence, and\ndisregarding the 5HC element here is fatal to any\nunderstanding of Wolfe's overall thinking and creative\nevolution. 5HC is integral to the argument of Briah;\nnothing overt disqualifies it from the Briah Cycle; it\nbelongs there.\n\n--Nick Gevers." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-11T14:13:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wash Post article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, [iso-8859-1] Nicholas Gevers wrote:\nThe matter of 5HC as entry point into Wolfe: yes, it's\na difficult and dispiriting book; but where else can\none find Wolfe at full power within a single novel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Wasn't Wolfe already being hailed as a genius for 5HC before\npeople had even read any of the New Sun books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And 5HC's place in the Briah Cycle: \nThree double world\nsystems--Urth/Lune, St Croix/St Anne, and\nBlue/Green--are in close thematic correspondence" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mostly agree with this. One of the main reasons I dislike the Urth=Blue\ntheory is that I prefer to think of the double planets more as a\nreoccuring theme than a literal correspondence.\n\nBut I also note that lumping Urth/Lune in with the others is a bit out of\nplace. While in the other two pairs, both planets are important settings\nfor the story, in the New Sun books, Lune is hardly more prominent than\nVerthandi or Skuld.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-12T03:08:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Wash Post article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Straight: yes, the Urth/Lune pairing is less\nimportant than the other two, and I certainly don't\nbelieve they are the same worlds as Blue and\nGreen--too much textual gerrymandering and wishful\nthinking go into that conclusion. But Lune may have a\ngreater symbolic/thematic importance than we\nrealise--if all three two-world systems are\nmirror-images or models of predatory symbiosis, it may\nbe hugely significant that Lune flourishes with life\nwhile Urth sinks towards the lifelessness of Ragnarok.\n\n--Nick Gevers." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kjm at panix.com" }, "date": "2002-04-12T03:16:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wash Post article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:41 AM 4/11/02, Nick wrote:\n5HC is\nperforce the best one-volume introduction to Wolfe's\nSF oeuvre." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this, and have been using it as such for the last 15 years. It \nis neither Wolfe's best nor worst, nor his \"most typical\" (is there such a \nthing for Wolfe?), but if someone reads and enjoys _Fifth Head_, that \nperson is likely to enjoy other Wolfe, and if not, they are unlikely to \nenjoy other Wolfe much more. When _Fifth Head_ was out of print, I made it \na point to buy Ace copies whenever I saw them, to pass on to people who \nhadn't jumped into Wolfe yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BUT: in the context of the\nwhole Urth/Whorl series, there is too much resonance\nwith 5HC to be ignored." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Numbering _Fifth Head_ as part of \"the Briah cycle\", as you did in your \narticle, is misleading and, frankly, wrong. There is no plot, character, or \nsetting connection between _Fifth Head_ and the various _Sun_ novels, and \ncalling it such sets up expectations in a new reader which I feel will not \nbe met. Does it resonate with the other novels? Yes, but so does \"Seven \nAmerican Nights\"; that doesn't make \"Seven American Nights\" part of \"the \nBriah cycle\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Kevin J. Maroney | kjm at panix.com | Games are my entire waking life\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-12T03:29:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wash Post article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I concede that listing 5HC as part of the Briah Cycle\nis an experimental proposition, but if it leads to a\nfuller understanding of Wolfe's baroque/SF oeuvre--and\nit should, for reasons evident in my article--it has\nsome chance of becoming axiomatic. Wolfe himself sees\nno difficulties with the Briah structure as I present\nit...\n\n--Nick Gevers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " --- \"Kevin J. Maroney\" wrote: \nNumbering _Fifth Head_ as part of \"the Briah cycle\",\nas you did in your \narticle, is misleading and, frankly, wrong. There is\nno plot, character, or \nsetting connection between _Fifth Head_ and the\nvarious _Sun_ novels, and \ncalling it such sets up expectations in a new reader\nwhich I feel will not \nbe met. Does it resonate with the other novels? Yes,\nbut so does \"Seven \nAmerican Nights\"; that doesn't make \"Seven American\nNights\" part of \"the \nBriah cycle\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-12T13:13:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wash Post article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Kevin J. Maroney wrote:\nI agree with this, and have been using it as such for the last 15 years. It \nis neither Wolfe's best nor worst, nor his \"most typical\" (is there such a \nthing for Wolfe?), but if someone reads and enjoys _Fifth Head_, that \nperson is likely to enjoy other Wolfe, and if not, they are unlikely to \nenjoy other Wolfe much more. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My introduction to Wolfe was the New Sun books, followed by the Soldier\nbooks, all of which I loved. Then I read 5HC and didn't like it very\nmuch. If that had been my introduction to Wolfe, I doubt I would have\ngone out of my way to read more of his stuff.\n\nI re-read 5HC recently, after having read a whole bunch more Wolfe, and\nenjoyed it much more. I like Wolfe's writing in 5HC and he does some very\ninteresting things with the story, but I don't find St. Anne/St. Croix and\nthe abos themselves all that interesting compared with Urth, the Whorl,\nSilk, Severian, Latro, the inhumi, etc.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }