{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3145", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3145, "subject": "5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "messages": 31, "voices": 14, "first": "2002-04-12T16:28:52+00:00", "last": "2002-04-24T16:10:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Grant Peacock", "address": "grantpeacock at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-12T16:28:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My introduction to Wolfe was the first novella in Fifth Head. At the end I\nfelt I'd been knocked on my ass, and I strongly suspected that I had\nexperienced a work of real genius even though nothing had made an ounce of\nsense. One thing I did know was that I was going to read it again, and look\nfor more Wolfe.\n\nFWIW, I'll risk ruining my credibility by telling you I had the same feeling as\nthe credits rolled after Vanilla Sky. I strongly suspected that a major plot\ntwist had eluded me entirely, but I had no idea what it was or where to look. \nWhat I did know was that film was beautiful and that I was going to watch it\nagain ASAP, even if I had to go to the movies alone. The second time, I formed\na coherent plot theory, but still knew I had missed a lot of clues, many of\nwhich I located the third time. Sound like a familiar experience for Wolfe\nfans?\n\nThere are many forms of art that I, at the tender age of 25, appreciate not at\nall, or appreciate only at the backround music/wallpaper/landscaping level of\nenjoyment. \"Art\" is there only because a blank wall would be too, well, blank.\n \nOthers I enjoy on the rock and roll/sit-com/die hard level. By this I mean it\nat least commands my attention for a certain amount of time, and this time is\nfun, but afterwards the experience is over and I'm not enriched or changed or\nthoughtful because of it.\nThirdly, there are the rare masterpieces that really have something to say. \nThese are the ones you read/watch/look at/listen to once, and discern little\nbut nonsense, but the second or third or tenth time, something starts to click\nand all you can say is wow. How little we understand about ourselves, when\nsuch power can lie in the written word, or on a screen or canvas or audio\nrecording. I know, I'm talking like Severian here and saying I can only\ndescribe it as indescribable. Sorry.\n\nFifth head, New Sun, and Peace are surely in this category for me. Of course\nplenty of his other work probably will be, as well, but it doesn't come easy. \n\nAnyway, I put forth this theory of the three different levels of artistic work,\nwhich no doubt blend together, because I want to make the point that level\nthree stuff is inaccessible. Many readers are not capable of reading it once,\nnot getting it, and saying ah hah better read it again. My dad, for example,\nis a relatively smart guy and reads a fair amount of SF. I have strongly and\nrepeatedly urged him to read Wolfe, and Fifth head in particular. \nUnfortunately, at the time he was in a bookstore and decided to try Wolfe he\nended up buying Shadow and Claw. I think he made it to the inn of lost loves\nbefore he lost patience. He says to me, \"Sorry, I couldn't get into it, it was\njust this guy walkin around with a sword.\" Fifth Head, I feel, is more\naccessible simply because it's short. I tell potential Wolfe newbies to just\nread the first Novella a few times. This is much less to ask, and if you do\nthat and get something out of it, then you'll be ready to take on the Sun\nbooks.\n\nOne anecdote before I go: Once I overheard a stranger next to me on a plane\nsay that she wished she had brought something to read. I happened to have 5HC\nwith me, and offered it to her. I explained that the first novella, only 80\npages, stands on its own and she could easily finish it during the flight. She\nread about 1/4 of it and then fell asleep with the book in her arms, leaving me\nstuck reading John Varley. But, she did wake up and finish it all, and she\nclearly impressed. She said she would definitely look for more GW. So,\nanyway, Fifth Head worked at least twice.. on me and on her.\n\nPeacock" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nMy introduction to Wolfe was the New Sun books, followed by the Soldier\nbooks, all of which I loved. Then I read 5HC and didn't like it very\nmuch. If that had been my introduction to Wolfe, I doubt I would have\ngone out of my way to read more of his stuff." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-04-13T09:14:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my own case, I fell for 5H because of its perversity and cruelty. I think\n(I really don't recall) that I first read only the first novella, which I\nfound (and find) dazzling, a model of what science fiction could do if it\ngrew up.(Does that mean I consider perversity and cruelty to be grown up?) I\ndon't know that I thought if it that way; it's just that I am not a\ngee-whizzist, and neither, obviously, is Wolfe. When mantis discovered the\nProust connection I was really impressed--in fact I gee-whizzed! I don't\nthink it was till after I was hooked by the New Sun that I read the second\nand third novellas, which take some patience, but when I did and put them\ntogether in my mind--well, it's quite an achievement. Formally, it's Wolfe's\nmost impressive work, and I simply don't believe the yarn that he knocked\nout the second and third novellas only to ensure publication. Perhaps\nthere's a slightly show-offy tinge to it--look, this is what I, and this\nmarginal field, can do with slightly shop-worn ingredients. I liked Delaney\nat the time for some of the same elements, but nothing Delaney has written\nis nearly as carefully crafted as 5H, though he too was trying to do\noriginal things with genre cliches.\n\nSorry, rambling a bit here!\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-13T18:52:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Alga, once again you and I have something weirdly in common, for 5HC \nwas also my first Wolfe, and thereafter I got and read all I could. But I \nread the whole thing in the Ace paperback. I recall being most impressed by \nthe sense of \"thereness\" that Wolfe communicated (to me anyway) in the \nopening pages. Also, of course, the chilling last sentence of part 1 after \nthe whole \"antichrist\" buildup with \"the Master at 666 Street of the \nHumbug\" attempting to gain mastery of human beings by genetic manipulation \n-- Wolfe just seemed to have it all: social/religious commentary, brilliant \nwriting, sense of place, etc. And that extremely sad scene of the \nshapechanger -- who should have been considered human -- in the dungeon \nhearing the church bells far away in part 3 -- these are hardwired in my \nmemory.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:14 AM 4/13/2002, you wrote:\nIn my own case, I fell for 5H because of its perversity and cruelty. I think\n(I really don't recall) that I first read only the first novella, which I\nfound (and find) dazzling, a model of what science fiction could do if it\ngrew up.(Does that mean I consider perversity and cruelty to be grown up?) I\ndon't know that I thought if it that way; it's just that I am not a\ngee-whizzist, and neither, obviously, is Wolfe. When mantis discovered the\nProust connection I was really impressed--in fact I gee-whizzed! I don't\nthink it was till after I was hooked by the New Sun that I read the second\nand third novellas, which take some patience, but when I did and put them\ntogether in my mind--well, it's quite an achievement. Formally, it's Wolfe's\nmost impressive work, and I simply don't believe the yarn that he knocked\nout the second and third novellas only to ensure publication. Perhaps\nthere's a slightly show-offy tinge to it--look, this is what I, and this\nmarginal field, can do with slightly shop-worn ingredients. I liked Delaney\nat the time for some of the same elements, but nothing Delaney has written\nis nearly as carefully crafted as 5H, though he too was trying to do\noriginal things with genre cliches.\n\nSorry, rambling a bit here!\n\n-alga\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-13T16:22:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: James Jordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, Alga, once again you and I have something weirdly in common, for\n5HC was also my first Wolfe, and thereafter I got and read all I could. .net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me. also. One thing that sucked me in was the library at the beginning, the\none with the great dome which M Million climbs up, and the pun on Wilhelm's\nMILE LONG SPACE SHIP (this being a future where there really are such\nships). Trivial, but so charming. But of coure that is only one little\nnote in a symphony. I read it again and again.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-15T16:52:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: James Jordan\nWell, Alga, once again you and I have something weirdly in common,\nfor\n5HC was also my first Wolfe, and thereafter I got and read all I could.\n.net\n\n\nMe. also. One thing that sucked me in was the library at the beginning,\nthe\none with the great dome which M Million climbs up, and the pun on\nWilhelm's\nMILE LONG SPACE SHIP (this being a future where there really are such\nships). Trivial, but so charming. But of coure that is only one little\nnote in a symphony. I read it again and again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your timing is perfect, folks, since I just read 5HC. Keep it up!\n\nThe above made me think about the library scene, with its plug for\nBernard Wolfe (I haven't read the Wilhelm story) and the hints\nthere (along with others) that the narrator's name is Wolfe. Am\nI supposed to think that Mr. Million is the author (or a descendant)?\nThat the narrator is a portrait of the well-born wolf after a series\nof worse and worse upbringings? Scary.\n\nPeople here talk about how the three novellas shed light on or\nsubvert each other, but I don't see the connections. I guess I\ncan wonder when Marsch wrote \"A Story\"--in prison, after he was\nreplaced by an abo, or went crazy and thought he was replaced by\nan abo, or whatever? Other than that, what am I missing? (As I\nmissed the reference to Proust, who I haven't read, and passed by\nthe 666 as a mere ornamental detail instead of thinking of the\nanti-Christ. And maybe it's unfortunate that \"saltimbanque\" makes\nme think of \"acrobat\" rather than \"humbug\".)\n\nAs for introductions, my introduction to Wolfe was various short\nstories, most of which I found incomprehensible. The 5HC novella\nmay have been one of them--if it was, it didn't grab me. Certainly\nthe world-building is superb, but so little happens. I might even\nhave read the whole novel; I got deja vu several times in \"V. R. T.\",\nand I don't *think* it was the now-familiar themes. (Mating with\ntrees, ha!) Anyway, it wasn't till I read _The Book of the New Sun_\nin my early twenties (is it possible?) that I really liked Wolfe.\n5HC is the *last* place I'd recommend anyone start because it seems\nthe most pointless to me of any of Wolfe's novels, and others might\nmiss whatever point I'm missing. But this is probably just a matter\nof taste.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-15T16:58:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the hints there (along with others) that the narrator's name is Wolfe.\nAm I supposed to think that Mr. Million is the author (or a descendant)?\nThat the narrator is a portrait of the well-born wolf after a series\nof worse and worse upbringings? Scary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a canonical\nlist of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) The name is\nquite fitting, too: the clone-series that includes Five, Maitre, and\nthe original of Mr. Million, is clearly a series of vicious predators\nupon their fellow humans who use genetic manipulation to acheive their\nends -- that is, Number Five is a gene wolf. Gene, of course, is short\nfor \"Eugene,\" well-born: that is exactly what Number Five is _not_. He\nis simply gene, born. Etc., etc. This is full of the kind of play that\nwould delight Derrida if he could ever bring himself to read American\nSF...\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-15T17:15:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nMore: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a canonical\nlist of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? I thought the name thing was just a joke. Not that the character\nis supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence to the real\nWolfe.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-15T17:18:16+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote Rostrum wrote:\n[Y]ou are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I thought the name thing was just a joke. Not that the\ncharacter is supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence\nto the real Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just started rereading 5HC. I'll respond to this (quite possibly by\ndevouring my share of crow) after I get through the first novella." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telusplanet.net" }, "date": "2002-04-15T17:28:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our \nown beloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a\ncanonical list of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) \nThe name is quite fitting, too: the clone-series that includes Five,\nMaitre, and the original of Mr. Million, is clearly a series of \nvicious predators upon their fellow humans who use genetic \nmanipulation to acheive their ends -- that is, Number Five is a \ngene wolf. Gene, of course, is short for \"Eugene,\" well-born: that \nis exactly what Number Five is _not_. He is simply gene, born. Etc.,\netc. This is full of the kind of play that would delight Derrida if \nhe could ever bring himself to read American SF..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll find the arguments at Robert Borski's Cave Canem webpage\n(http://webpages.charter.net/rborski/number5.html). I note, though,\nthat he says \"Number Five's name is the male equivalent of Jeannine or\nJean/Gene.\" I'm not sure that \"Jean\" and \"Gene\" are really equivalents,\nsince \"Gene\" is short for \"Eugene\" and \"Jean\" (French) is the English\n\"John.\"\n\nBut I note with interest that (according to \"'A Story,' by John V.\nMarsch\") on Sainte Anne, all boys are named \"John.\"\n\n ... his mother called him John (which only signifies \"a man,\"\n all boy children being named *John*) Eastwind (Ace, p. 84).\n\nIf Number Five's name is the French male equivalent of Jeanette, then\nhe's called Jean, the English of which is John -- the standard name for\nany boy on the neighbouring planet, and also the name of John V. Marsch.\nInteresting, I said to myself, but significant...\n\nSpeaking of which, is there some significance to \"Marsch\"? I note that\nJohn Eastwind and John Sandwalker in \"A Story\" are named after\ncircumstances connected with their birth. And what is John V. Marsch's\nmiddle name?\n\nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-15T23:18:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nthe hints there (along with others) that the narrator's name is Wolfe.\nAm I supposed to think that Mr. Million is the author (or a\ndescendant)?\nThat the narrator is a portrait of the well-born wolf after a series\nof worse and worse upbringings? Scary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a canonical\nlist of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) The name is\nquite fitting, too: the clone-series that includes Five, Maitre, and\nthe original of Mr. Million, is clearly a series of vicious predators\nupon their fellow humans who use genetic manipulation to acheive their\nends -- that is, Number Five is a gene wolf. Gene, of course, is short\nfor \"Eugene,\" well-born: that is exactly what Number Five is _not_. He\nis simply gene, born. Etc., etc. This is full of the kind of play that\nwould delight Derrida if he could ever bring himself to read American\nSF..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Mr. Million is number 1 (or 2, being Number Five's great-\ngrandfather?), so maybe he _is_ the author, which is what I said.\nI missed the \"merely born\" thing, though. On the other hand, even\n\"born\" is, in a sense, what Number Five is _not_--born of man and\nwoman, anyway.\n\nAnyway, I've been reading Robert Borski's pages, and the parts that\nI believe are answering a lot of questions.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-15T23:41:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- John Barach wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You'll find the arguments at Robert Borski's Cave Canem webpage\n(http://webpages.charter.net/rborski/number5.html). I note, though,\nthat he says \"Number Five's name is the male equivalent of Jeannine or\nJean/Gene.\" I'm not sure that \"Jean\" and \"Gene\" are really equivalents,\nsince \"Gene\" is short for \"Eugene\" and \"Jean\" (French) is the English\n\"John.\"\n\nBut I note with interest that (according to \"'A Story,' by John V.\nMarsch\") on Sainte Anne, all boys are named \"John.\"\n\n ... his mother called him John (which only signifies \"a man,\"\n all boy children being named *John*) Eastwind (Ace, p. 84).\n\nIf Number Five's name is the French male equivalent of Jeanette, then\nhe's called Jean, the English of which is John -- the standard name for\nany boy on the neighbouring planet, and also the name of John V. Marsch.\nInteresting, I said to myself, but significant...\n\nSpeaking of which, is there some significance to \"Marsch\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A connection to the marshmen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I note that\nJohn Eastwind and John Sandwalker in \"A Story\" are named after\ncircumstances connected with their birth. And what is John V. Marsch's\nmiddle name?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Victor? Borski speculates that Victor R(oy?) Trenchard added the\nmiddle initial after killing the real Marsch and assuming his\nidentity.\n\nSpeaking of names, Borski doesn't mention that in _Zen and the\nArt of Motorcycle Maintenance_ \"Phaedrus\" is said to mean \"wolf\",\nwhich would be strong support for his theory that Phaedria is Number\nFive's half-sister. (However, according to\n, that etymology\nis not true. Has this stuff all been discussed?)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-04-16T00:26:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was WashingtonPost article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Date: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:00 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nMore: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a canonical\nlist of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) The name is\nquite fitting, too: the clone-series that includes Five, Maitre, and\nthe original of Mr. Million, is clearly a series of vicious predators\nupon their fellow humans who use genetic manipulation to acheive their\nends -- that is, Number Five is a gene wolf. Gene, of course, is short\nfor \"Eugene,\" well-born: that is exactly what Number Five is _not_. He\nis simply gene, born. Etc., etc. This is full of the kind of play that\nwould delight Derrida if he could ever bring himself to read American\nSF..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if what you wrote isn't true, it ought to be. That's brilliant.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-16T00:28:48+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if what you wrote isn't true, it ought to be. That's brilliant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is why I said it was full of Derridean play. It doesn't have to\nbe intended by the author, only visible to the reader. While I have\na lot of reservations about a lot of pomo-ism, and do have some respect\nfor \"what the author meant,\" I am fundamentally in agreement with the\npomo concept that, once the work is published, it is out of the artist's\nhands and its \"meaning\" is what is generated in the space where it \nencounters a reader's mind, whether this is what the author intended\nor no.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-04-16T11:48:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"John Barach\" \nSpeaking of which, is there some significance to \"Marsch\"? I note that\nJohn Eastwind and John Sandwalker in \"A Story\" are named after\ncircumstances connected with their birth. And what is John V. Marsch's\nmiddle name?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Victor. But V is also the Roman 5. \n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-16T14:56:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 11:52 AM 4/15/2002, you wrote:\n\n (As I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "missed the reference to Proust, who I haven't read, and passed by\nthe 666 as a mere ornamental detail instead of thinking of the\nanti-Christ. And maybe it's unfortunate that \"saltimbanque\" makes\nme think of \"acrobat\" rather than \"humbug\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Jerry, also notice that it is a whorehouse, the opposite of the \nchurch (Bride of Christ) in the Book of Revelation (The Great Harlot). \nThus, 666. Also, the place is guarded by Cerberus, who guards the gates of \nhell. In Proverbs, the harlot's feet \"extend down to sheol,\" and the \nopposition of Lady Wisdom and Harlot Folly in Proverbs 1-9 is immediate \nbackground to Bride versus Harlot in Revelation, and something Wolfe cannot \nfail to have missed. (Anyway, the abode of the antichrist is hell until he \nappears on earth, when \"they want us.\")" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-16T15:00:07+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:15 PM 4/15/2002, you wrote:\nOn Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "More: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a canonical\nlist of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I thought the name thing was just a joke. Not that the character\nis supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence to the real\nWolfe.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Methinks Dan'l is right. Gene Wolfe is pointing to the \"heart of \ndarkness\" in everyman/woman, and using himself as an example. Number Five \nand Maitre are what Everyman could be -- and what Gene would be apart from \nsaving grace. Remember: Wolfe believes in Original Sin. And there has been \ndiscussion here of the fact that evidently he has a \"depressive \npersonality.\" It all fits.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-16T15:10:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:28 PM 4/15/2002, John Holbrook Vance Barach wrote:\nBut I note with interest that (according to \"'A Story,' by John V.\nMarsch\") on Sainte Anne, all boys are named \"John.\"\n\n ... his mother called him John (which only signifies \"a man,\"\n all boy children being named *John*) Eastwind (Ace, p. 84).\n\nIf Number Five's name is the French male equivalent of Jeanette, then\nhe's called Jean, the English of which is John -- the standard name for\nany boy on the neighbouring planet, and also the name of John V. Marsch.\nInteresting, I said to myself, but significant..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Could all these \"Johns\" have come from \"Buckaroo Banzai\"? Well, I \nguess not, given the dates of writing and of the movie. But a John is a \nuser of prostitutes, so the names fit with the larger \"antichrist\" theme in \nthe book. It may be another truly dark hint, that the shapeshifters are \nimitating the wrong kind of people, \"Johns\" who frequent the \"harlots\" at \n666 rue de Saltimbanque. Does this remind us of the Book of the Short Sun? \nYes, it does. What kind people will the shapeshifter/inhumi imitate? Kudos \nagain to Gever for making the thematic connexions!\nA comment on Borski's Je m'appelle Jean Loup\nfrom his website. He writeth:\n\nAlthough the title novella of THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS is narrated in the \nfirst person, and there are countless interactions between the narrator and \nthe other characters of the novella, the only name ever attached to him is \nNumber Five, which comes from Maitre, his father, and refers to his clonal \nnature. And yet it is possible to work out Number Five's real name from \ncertain clues within the novella.\n\nOur first clue comes early in the text, when at the public library, Number \nFive attempts to locate books written by his father, the authorship of \nwhich he has found out about from the mysterious lady in pink. Where does \nhe begin his search? In the \"W\" holdings, where he finds books by Kate \nWilhelm, Bernard Wolfe, Virginia Woolf, and Vernor Vinge (the VV of V.Vinge \nhaving apparently been misread as \"Winge\" by some errant librarian). Number \nFive concludes his search by saying he never found any books by his father, \nbut it now seems reasonable to assume his last name begins with W.\n\nLater then, just before Number Five is first given his numerical nickname, \nhe says, in response to his father's telling him he may pick his own name, \n\"It seemed to me quite impossible that I should have any name other than \nthe two words which were, in some mystic sense I only respected without \nunderstanding, my name.\"\n\n Me: I would add that the \"mystic sense\" has to do with genetics \n(gene) and the lupine (man is a wolf to man) character of the family. \nBorski adds:\n\nSo now we know Number Five's name consists of two words, the latter of \nwhich begins with W.\n\nEnter into Number Five's life Maitre's sister, who introduces herself as \nAunt Jeannine. Later, however, we learn that Aunt Jeannine is a female \nvariant of Number Five's father (and since Number Five himself is cloned \nfrom the same source), so inferentially this allows us to assume Number \nFive's name is the male equivalent of Jeannine or Jean/Gene.\n\nAs for the \"W\" patronym, besides the library reference, Number Five remarks \nthat his house is sometimes referred to as Maison du Chien (because of its \nstatue of Cerberus) and that this \"may have been a reference to our surname \nas well.\" Chien usually means dog in French, but it can also mean wolf.\n\nErgo, our narrator's name, is Gene Wolf(e), although given the prevalence \nof French in Port-Mimizon, it might just as easily be Jean Loup.\n\n Me: But it's interesting that it's not. It's \"Gene\" and \"Wolfe.\" \n(Thank goodness Wolfe did not have No. 5 looking under \"L\" for his father's \nwritings, or else probably even Borski would not have figured it out!) So, \nwe have the American Gene Wolfe living in the New Orleans French society. \n(And Wolfe did live in Nawlns in his childhood, right?)\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-16T18:58:36+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, James Jordan wrote:\n Methinks Dan'l is right. Gene Wolfe is pointing to the \"heart of \ndarkness\" in everyman/woman, and using himself as an example. Number Five \nand Maitre are what Everyman could be -- and what Gene would be apart from \nsaving grace. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this, but I think it is a symbolic connection rather than a\nliteral one. That is, I don't think we should expect #5 to look like our\nown Mr. Wolfe nor look for clues that the family has held on to a single\nname since the 20th century. But by giving #5 and Maitre his own name,\nWolfe is implying something along the lines you suggest.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-16T19:15:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Jordan wrote:\nAt 12:15 PM 4/15/2002, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "More: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our\nown\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a\ncanonical\nlist of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really? I thought the name thing was just a joke. Not that the\ncharacter\nis supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence to the real\nWolfe.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Methinks Dan'l is right. Gene Wolfe is pointing to the \"heart\nof \ndarkness\" in everyman/woman, and using himself as an example. Number\nFive \nand Maitre are what Everyman could be -- and what Gene would be apart\nfrom \nsaving grace. Remember: Wolfe believes in Original Sin. And there has\nbeen \ndiscussion here of the fact that evidently he has a \"depressive \npersonality.\" It all fits." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Thanks, fur-bearing one! This comment and your previous one\nwere helpful.\n If Wolfe is going to suggest that the main character of \"5HC\"\nis himself, I think it's all right for me to continue the discussion\nof his personality. In his interviews he strikes me as rather\narrogant (of course he has a very big lot to be proud of), and\nsomeone on rasfw called him \"nasty\", \"rude\", and \"a prick\" after\nseeing him on a panel; that's consistent with arrogance. (See\n--I\nhope this shortene [!] URL works.) On\nthe other hand, people have inferred that he has tendencies to\nself-doubt and depression, which probably includes self-accusation.\nThis is exactly the combination that someone would need to see himself\nas so arrogant that (if, as you say, he let slip his reception of the\ndivine grace he believes in) he could embark on a project to find out\nwhy he wasn't as powerful as he should be and make himself into the\nanti-Christ in the process.\n\nBy the way, am I supposed to think that the Gene Wolfes in 5HC are\n*really* becoming the anti-Christ, or are freeing their inner\nanti-Christ, just as good Christians believe that God is within\nthem and try to imitate Christ?\n\nAccording to the headlines, if Wolfe did want to clone himself, it's\nprobably possible now. There could be duplicates available when the\nMr. Million part of the project becomes feasible and if the\nstarcrossing part does.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-16T19:54:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I wrote Rostrum wrote I wrote:\n[Y]ou are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own\nbeloved Gene Wolfe. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really? I thought the name thing was just a joke. Not that the\ncharacter is supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence\nto the real Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just started rereading 5HC. I'll respond to this (quite possibly by\ndevouring my share of crow) after I get through the first novella." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I don't think I am up for a corvid sandwich at this point, but\nonly because of my rather cautious wording above: I said you are \nsupposed to think that #5 is a clone of the \"real\" Wolfe, but I did\n_not_ say that he is. As Nutria observes, this identification may be\nsymbolic, but is definitely more than _just_ symbolic; Wolfe is pointing\nto what he himself could, potentially, become. \n\nThe primary evidence that the \"original\" may be \"our\" Wolfe is the\nphotograph of Number Five's mother, first displayed on pp25-6 of \nthe Ace edition:\n\n\t... a photograph utilizing, as I supposed, some novelty\n\ttechnique which washed away all color save a light brown.\n\tIt was small, and from its general appearance and crumbling\n\tedges very old. It showed a girl of twenty-five or so, thin\n\tand as nearly as I could judge rather tall, standing beside\n\ta stocky young man on a paved walkway and holding a baby.\n\tThe walkway ran along the front of a remarkable house, a \n\tvery long wooden house only a story in height, with a porch\n\tor veranda that changed its architectural style every twenty\n\tor thirty feet so as to gvie almost the impression of a \n\tnumber of exceedingly narrow houses constructed with their \n\tside walls in contact. I mention this detail, which I hardly\n\tnoticed at the time, because I have so often since my \n\trelease from prison tried to find some trace of this house. \n\tWhen I was first shown in the picture I was much more \n\tinterested in the girl's face, and the baby's. The latter\n\twas in fact scarcely visible, he being nearly smothered in\n\twhite wool blankets. The girl had large features and a \n\tbrilliant smile which held a suggestion of that rarely\n\tseen charm which is at once careless, poetic, and sly. \n\tGypsy, was my first thought, but her complexion was surely\n\ttoo fair for that. Since on this world we are all descended\n\tfrom a relatively small group of colonists, we are rather\n\ta uniform population, but my studies had given me some \n\tfamiliarity with the original Terrestrial races, and my \n\tsecond guess, almost a certainty, was Celtic. \"Wales,\" I\n\tsaid aloud. \"Or Scotland. Or Ireland.\" \n\n\t\"What?\" ... My aunt looked at me acutely and said, \"You're\n\tright. I'll send for you and we'll talk about this when \n\twe've more leisure.\"\n\n(That discussion, of course, never comes.) \n\nWhat I would like to know is whether Gene Wolfe actually has \nthis photograph in his possession, and, if so, who it depicts,\nand where.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-16T21:37:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n... a photograph utilizing, as I supposed, some novelty\ntechnique which washed away all color save a light brown.\nIt was small, a" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I would like to know is whether Gene Wolfe actually has\nthis photograph in his possession, and, if so, who it depicts,\nand where." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am irresistably reminded of the pictures that hold the replicants' fake\nidentity/memory in BLADE RUNNER.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-17T13:19:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 16/04/2002 20:15:11 Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nSheesh..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--I" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reading the Urth (and the late Whorl) lists has made me think about the\nway I read. The regular (and apparently unending) unurthing of things I'd\nnot noticed brought me to the onclusion that I was generally an uncritical\nreader.\n\nReading that rasfw thread however maybe I'm too hard on myself. If I lack\ninsight then in comparison some of the contributors to the thread are\nclose to brain death. I can understand if ones taste simply doesn't run\nto the baroque use of language but for someone who'se read it to say\n\"Severian is a man with a good memory\" beggars belief.\n\nThanks too Jerry for reminding me why I gave up reading rasfw. :-)\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "jason at jvoegele.com" }, "date": "2002-04-17T15:18:56+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " If Wolfe is going to suggest that the main character of \"5HC\"\nis himself, I think it's all right for me to continue the discussion of\nhis personality. In his interviews he strikes me as rather\narrogant (of course he has a very big lot to be proud of), and\nsomeone on rasfw called him \"nasty\", \"rude\", and \"a prick\" after\nseeing him on a panel; that's consistent with arrogance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, when I met Wolfe he seemed a very kind and friendly man. I was at a \nconvention and just happened to be standing near by when he signed in (he \nwas guest of honor). He introduced himself to me and we talked for a few \nmoments, and when it became clear to him that I would not be able to make \nthe book signing that was being held later that day, he sat down with me, \nsigned my books, and we talked for maybe ten minutes. David Brin was also \nat the convention and I had a copy of STARTIDE RISING for him to sign. \nWolfe offered to sign that one as well, claiming that he \"knew how to \nspell 'Brin'\". He was very polite and had a richly subtle sense of humor.\n\nThat said, given an incident at that same convention when David Brin was \nspeaking on a panel discussion, you might also make the claim that he is \nquite arrogant, although I'd say rather that he is firm in his convictions \nand outspoken in his opinion. I sat next to Wolfe during a panel \ndiscussion on which Brin was speaking (Wolfe was not part of the panel, \njust in the audience). Brin was stating something to the effect \nof \"sitting around watching television all day isn't such a bad thing. \nIt's certainly better than what we did a few hundred years ago, sitting \naround staring at a fire.\"\n\nWolfe took strong objection to this, and shouted, interrupting Brin, \nsomething along the lines of \"Anybody who believes that is living in a \ndream land.\" Brin retorted, essentially saying the same thing he did \nbefore, that sitting around watching television as so many people do now is \na better thing than what people did in the past, sitting around staring at \na fire. Wolfe's final comment was \"sitting around the fire, *talking*\". \nAfter a few moments, he and his wife stood up and left the room.\n\nPerhaps this was the same panel discussion that the r.a.sf.w poster \nwitnessed. I was surprised when Wolfe had interrupted Brin's speech, but I \ncan't say I disagreed with him. Whether you'd call this arrogant, I don't \nknow, but maybe it shows the two sides of Wolfe's personality (Silkhorn may \nbe more real than we know). I certainly can't agree that he's \"nasty, \nrude, and a prick.\" I'd invite him to dinner any time.\n\nAnyway, I'm feeling guilty now about treading into Wolfe's personal life, \nso I'll stop.\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-17T18:26:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well hey, if people are still perculating on 5HC, get on over to\nUltan's Library and read the two essays there. First by Peter\nWright, who, as I've written before, does a great job on the\npost-colonialist interpretation of 5HC; and then the response by our\nfavorite Robert Borski, which I especially like since he says pretty\nmuch what I would have said, and he does it better than I probably\nwould have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Three cheers (or little creepy stars) for Borski.\n\nGoing back to alga's comment on the cruelty of 5HC, I think part of\nwhat amazes me about the book is that it's a beautiful _trap_ for the\ncharacters, of the only \"fair\" kind--Number 5 and V.R.T. are\nphysically imprisoned (one released) but the real traps are their\nselves. \"All he can do forever, it seems, is become more like\nhimself,\" as Borski puts it. mantis mentions Camus, but I think of a\nreversal of Sartre (of course, one hardly original to Wolfe): \"Hell is\nnot other people, but built out of a certain kind of constructed\nself.\"\n\nWright's essay is good, but I must also raise issue with the notion of\n\"the isolated intellectual Wolfe favours throughout much of his\nfiction.\" Isolated intellectuals like Severian and Silk and Horn?\nWhere are the isolated intellectuals of Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-17T20:40:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So to what extent are the Proust and Coleridge \"encapsulations\" in the\n5HC novella _essential_ to the theme, and to what extent does Wolfe do\nthis kind of thing just because he can?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-17T15:45:13+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Jason Voegele wrote:\n If Wolfe is going to suggest that the main character of \"5HC\"\nis himself, I think it's all right for me to continue the discussion\nof\nhis personality. In his interviews he strikes me as rather\narrogant (of course he has a very big lot to be proud of), and\nsomeone on rasfw called him \"nasty\", \"rude\", and \"a prick\" after\nseeing him on a panel; that's consistent with arrogance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, when I met Wolfe he seemed a very kind and friendly man. I was at\na \nconvention and just happened to be standing near by when he signed in\n(he \nwas guest of honor). He introduced himself to me and we talked for a\nfew \nmoments, and when it became clear to him that I would not be able to\nmake \nthe book signing that was being held later that day, he sat down with\nme, \nsigned my books, and we talked for maybe ten minutes. David Brin was\nalso \nat the convention and I had a copy of STARTIDE RISING for him to sign. \nWolfe offered to sign that one as well, claiming that he \"knew how to \nspell 'Brin'\". He was very polite and had a richly subtle sense of\nhumor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Being nice to fans and having a richly subtle sense of humor (I do\nlike that offer) strike me as totally consistent with arrogance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That said, given an incident at that same convention when David Brin was\n\nspeaking on a panel discussion, you might also make the claim that he is\n\nquite arrogant, although I'd say rather that he is firm in his\nconvictions \nand outspoken in his opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " [snip story]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps this was the same panel discussion that the r.a.sf.w poster \nwitnessed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Different one--the panel mentioned by \"Infozombie\" in rasfw was\nat a librarians' convention, and the other panelists were Joan Vinge\nand Joan Slonczewski." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was surprised when Wolfe had interrupted Brin's speech,\nbut I \ncan't say I disagreed with him. Whether you'd call this arrogant, I\ndon't \nknow, but maybe it shows the two sides of Wolfe's personality (Silkhorn\nmay \nbe more real than we know). I certainly can't agree that he's \"nasty, \nrude, and a prick.\" I'd invite him to dinner any time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He could certainly have been far more polite to Brin. \"I disagree\nwith you completely, because...\" Of course, no one's at his best on\nhearing something that he violently dislikes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I'm feeling guilty now about treading into Wolfe's personal\nlife, \nso I'll stop." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as I said, if he creates a character with his name who's\ntotally consistent with being himself (as far as I can tell, anyway),\nI think he's permitting speculation that the character is a\nself-portrait of some kind or other, which leads to discussion of his\nown character.\n\nIt's worth noting that we take Silk to be Wolfe's portrayal of a\ngood person, and Silk is given to being \"merciless\" (as Silkhorn\nputs it) with himself. Wolfe may have thought he was being a good\nperson in being so merciless with himself that he envisioned\nhimself as Number Five and his father.\n\nTo be fair, I should probably admit that what I'm speculating was\nWolfe's problem, at least at the time of writing 5HC, is something I\nhave a problem with myself--excessive pride and excessive self-\ncondemnation. I may be seeing only what I'm familiar with, but on\nthe other hand, I am presenting reasons for seeing it.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-17T21:48:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Tue, 16 Apr 2002, James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Methinks Dan'l is right. Gene Wolfe is pointing to the \"heart\nof \ndarkness\" in everyman/woman, and using himself as an example. Number\nFive \nand Maitre are what Everyman could be -- and what Gene would be apart\nfrom \nsaving grace. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with this, but I think it is a symbolic connection rather than a\nliteral one. That is, I don't think we should expect #5 to look like\nour\nown Mr. Wolfe nor look for clues that the family has held on to a single\nname since the 20th century. But by giving #5 and Maitre his own name,\nWolfe is implying something along the lines you suggest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said in an earlier e-mail, Wolfe has survived to the 21st\ncentury and there's no need for holding onto names. More to the\npoint, the possibility that he could be cloned someday was probably\na reasonable sf assumption in 1972.\n\nAlso, note that the Gene Wolfes of 5HC are both engineers and writers,\nlike our hero.\n\nHow about looks? Anyone know what Wolfe looked like when he wrote\nthat story?\n\nPerhaps even more to the point, the story strikes me as *much* more\nchilling if we take it as Wolfe recognizing this potential in\nhimself.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-18T05:22:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another random minor 5HC tidbit:\n\nThe man in black who arrests V.R.T. being from (at least for the\nmoment) The Department of Public Works, Subdepartment of Sewers and\nDrains could be a nice little nod to Solzhenitsyn's \"The History of\nOur Sewage Disposal System\" except 5HC is 1972 and _The Gulag\nArchipelago_ didn't come out until 1973 in the US." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-18T13:31:45+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:48 PM 4/17/2002, you wrote:\nPerhaps even more to the point, the story strikes me as *much* more\nchilling if we take it as Wolfe recognizing this potential in\nhimself.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess so. But my point, and I think Wolfe's, was \"theological\" and \nthematic. No. 5 is Everyman -- eschatological humanity moving toward \n\"antichrist\" -- apart from grace. No. 5's real name could be \"James Jordan\" \nor \"Jerry Friedman\" or even \"Alice Turner.\" ;-)\n I suspect \"antichrist\" may be thematically more important than \nI've previously thought. Recall that Christ died for others, whereas the \npeople in 5HC are constantly making others die for them. Christ reached out \nto others and taught that he who would be great must be servant of all, the \nopposite of what the powerful people in the first and third novellas are doing.\n\nFWIW.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-19T06:26:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Alex David Groce " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another random minor 5HC tidbit:\n\nThe man in black who arrests V.R.T. being from (at least for the\nmoment) The Department of Public Works, Subdepartment of Sewers and\nDrains could be a nice little nod to Solzhenitsyn's \"The History of\nOur Sewage Disposal System\" except 5HC is 1972 and _The Gulag\nArchipelago_ didn't come out until 1973 in the US." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vaguely recalled from a transcribed radio interview of Wolfe:\n\t\"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" was written about 1971-2; Wolfe used it\nfor a workshop story where Knight was teaching. Knight offered to\npublish it if Wolfe could supply two other novellas to go with it. THE\nFIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS, the volume including the three stories, came out\nabout 1976, so Wolfe had plenty of time to read Solzhenitsyn and turn in\n\"V.R.T.\" later." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tom Foster", "address": "t.foster2 at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2002-04-24T16:10:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: 5HC a good introduction to wolfe?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been following the recent discussions of 5HC with a good deal of\ninterest. My introduction to Wolfe was _The Shadow of the Torturer_ (the\nbest possible introduction IMHO), which I came to via Jack Vance's _Dying\nEarth_ books. I read 5HC shortly afterwards, but had never returned to it\nsince (many years having now elapsed). The recent discussions of it piqued\nmy interest (it's one of the only 'major' Wolfe books that I had not read\nmore than once) and I've been reading it for the past few days. I enjoyed it\nconsiderably more this time around, perhaps because when I first read it I\nwas only around 15 and didn't understand/appreciate many of its qualities.\nI'm not sure that I would consider it an especially good introduction to\nWolfe as it is convoluted even by his standards and requires a lot of\nthought and involvement from the reader. It also lacks a stong central\ncharacter like Severian, Silk or Horn (or even Latro), the depiction of\nwhich is where Wolfe excels, I feel. I think that had it been my first Wolfe\nI would have enjoyed it but not particularly felt the need to seek out other\nworks by him, whereas having read _Shadow_ I immediately wanted to find out\nwhat else this author had written.\n\nWith regards to the issue of whether or not the abos possessed the ability\nto shape change, I am inclined to agree with those who feel that this was\nprobably not the case. There are no instances in the book where we are\npositively told that a character has morphed into something else. Sandwalker\n*seems* to become an otter (though this is only part of a story written by\nVRT(?) anyhow), VRT assumes John V Marsch's identity but still looks younger\nthan him, VRT's mother could make herself look older by doing certain\nthings, etc, but nothing concrete.\n\nI thought it was interesting to note the apparent similarities between the\ninhumi and the abos. There is a mention of an abo looking like a piece of\n\"old wood\", compared to the liana staff of Silkhorn (and indeed the liana\nitself shows up again in 'A Story'). Also, the ability to shapeshift, which\nthe inhumi certainly possess in comparison to the abos' rumoured ability.\n\nAnyway, thanks to the group for inspiring me to re-read 5HC and also to\nRobert Borski for his useful insights at Cave Canem.\n\n\nTom" } ] } ] }