Subject: (urth) 5HC a good introduction to wolfe? (was Washington Post article)

From: Grant Peacock <grantpeacock at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:28:52 +0000

My introduction to Wolfe was the first novella in Fifth Head.  At the end I
felt I'd been knocked on my ass, and I strongly suspected that I had
experienced a work of real genius even though nothing had made an ounce of
sense.  One thing I did know was that I was going to read it again, and look
for more Wolfe.

FWIW, I'll risk ruining my credibility by telling you I had the same feeling as
the credits rolled after Vanilla Sky.  I strongly suspected that a major plot
twist had eluded me entirely, but I had no idea what it was or where to look. 
What I did know was that film was beautiful and that I was going to watch it
again ASAP, even if I had to go to the movies alone.  The second time, I formed
a coherent plot theory, but still knew I had missed a lot of clues, many of
which I located the third time.  Sound like a familiar experience for Wolfe
fans?

There are many forms of art that I, at the tender age of 25, appreciate not at
all, or appreciate only at the backround music/wallpaper/landscaping level of
enjoyment.  "Art" is there only because a blank wall would be too, well, blank.
 
Others I enjoy on the rock and roll/sit-com/die hard level.  By this I mean it
at least commands my attention for a certain amount of time, and this time is
fun, but afterwards the experience is over and I'm not enriched or changed or
thoughtful because of it.
Thirdly, there are the rare masterpieces that really have something to say. 
These are the ones you read/watch/look at/listen to once, and discern little
but nonsense, but the second or third or tenth time, something starts to click
and all you can say is wow.  How little we understand about ourselves, when
such power can lie in the written word, or on a screen or canvas or audio
recording.  I know, I'm talking like Severian here and saying I can only
describe it as indescribable.  Sorry.

Fifth head, New Sun, and Peace are surely in this category for me.  Of course
plenty of his other work probably will be, as well, but it doesn't come easy.  

Anyway, I put forth this theory of the three different levels of artistic work,
which no doubt blend together, because I want to make the point that level
three stuff is inaccessible.  Many readers are not capable of reading it once,
not getting it, and saying ah hah better read it again.  My dad, for example,
is a relatively smart guy and reads a fair amount of SF.  I have strongly and
repeatedly urged him to read Wolfe, and Fifth head in particular. 
Unfortunately, at the time he was in a bookstore and decided to try Wolfe he
ended up buying Shadow and Claw.  I think he made it to the inn of lost loves
before he lost patience.  He says to me, "Sorry, I couldn't get into it, it was
just this guy walkin around with a sword."  Fifth Head, I feel, is more
accessible simply because it's short.  I tell potential Wolfe newbies to just
read the first Novella a few times.  This is much less to ask, and if you do
that and get something out of it, then you'll be ready to take on the Sun
books.

One anecdote before I go:  Once I overheard a stranger next to me on a plane
say that she wished she had brought something to read.  I happened to have 5HC
with me, and offered it to her.  I explained that the first novella, only 80
pages, stands on its own and she could easily finish it during the flight.  She
read about 1/4 of it and then fell asleep with the book in her arms, leaving me
stuck reading John Varley.  But, she did wake up and finish it all, and she
clearly impressed.  She said she would definitely look for more GW.  So,
anyway, Fifth Head worked at least twice.. on me and on her.

Peacock

--- Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu> wrote:
> My introduction to Wolfe was the New Sun books, followed by the Soldier
> books, all of which I loved.  Then I read 5HC and didn't like it very
> much.  If that had been my introduction to Wolfe, I doubt I would have
> gone out of my way to read more of his stuff.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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--

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:14:34 +0000

In my own case, I fell for 5H because of its perversity and cruelty. I think
(I really don't recall) that I first read only the first novella, which I
found (and find) dazzling, a model of what science fiction could do if it
grew up.(Does that mean I consider perversity and cruelty to be grown up?) I
don't know that I thought if it that way; it's just that I am not a
gee-whizzist, and neither, obviously, is Wolfe. When mantis discovered the
Proust connection I was really impressed--in fact I gee-whizzed! I don't
think it was till after I was hooked by the New Sun that I read the second
and third novellas, which take some patience, but when I did and put them
together in my mind--well, it's quite an achievement. Formally, it's Wolfe's
most impressive work, and I simply don't believe the yarn that he knocked
out the second and third novellas only to ensure publication. Perhaps
there's a slightly show-offy tinge to it--look, this is what I, and this
marginal field, can do with slightly shop-worn ingredients. I liked Delaney
at the time for some of the same elements, but nothing Delaney has written
is nearly as carefully crafted as 5H, though he too was trying to do
original things with genre cliches.

Sorry, rambling a bit here!

-alga

--

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 18:52:58 +0000

Well, Alga, once again you and I have something weirdly in common, for 5HC 
was also my first Wolfe, and thereafter I got and read all I could. But I 
read the whole thing in the Ace paperback. I recall being most impressed by 
the sense of "thereness" that Wolfe communicated (to me anyway) in the 
opening pages. Also, of course, the chilling last sentence of part 1 after 
the whole "antichrist" buildup with "the Master at 666 Street of the 
Humbug" attempting to gain mastery of human beings by genetic manipulation 
-- Wolfe just seemed to have it all: social/religious commentary, brilliant 
writing, sense of place, etc. And that extremely sad scene of the 
shapechanger -- who should have been considered human -- in the dungeon 
hearing the church bells far away in part 3 -- these are hardwired in my 
memory.

Nutria

--

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:22:30 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: James Jordan
>> Well, Alga, once again you and I have something weirdly in common, for
5HC was also my first Wolfe, and thereafter I got and read all I could. .net

Me. also.  One thing that sucked me in was the library at the beginning, the
one with the great dome which M Million climbs up, and the pun on Wilhelm's
MILE LONG SPACE SHIP  (this being a future where there really are such
ships).  Trivial, but so charming.  But of coure that is only one little
note in a symphony.  I read it again and again.

    hartshorn

--

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:52:40 +0000

> note in a symphony.  I read it again and again.

Your timing is perfect, folks, since I just read 5HC.  Keep it up!

The above made me think about the library scene, with its plug for
Bernard Wolfe (I haven't read the Wilhelm story) and the hints
there (along with others) that the narrator's name is Wolfe.  Am
I supposed to think that Mr. Million is the author (or a descendant)?
That the narrator is a portrait of the well-born wolf after a series
of worse and worse upbringings?  Scary.

People here talk about how the three novellas shed light on or
subvert each other, but I don't see the connections.  I guess I
can wonder when Marsch wrote "A Story"--in prison, after he was
replaced by an abo, or went crazy and thought he was replaced by
an abo, or whatever?  Other than that, what am I missing?  (As I
missed the reference to Proust, who I haven't read, and passed by
the 666 as a mere ornamental detail instead of thinking of the
anti-Christ.  And maybe it's unfortunate that "saltimbanque" makes
me think of "acrobat" rather than "humbug".)

As for introductions, my introduction to Wolfe was various short
stories, most of which I found incomprehensible.  The 5HC novella
may have been one of them--if it was, it didn't grab me.  Certainly
the world-building is superb, but so little happens.  I might even
have read the whole novel; I got deja vu several times in "V. R. T.",
and I don't *think* it was the now-familiar themes.  (Mating with
trees, ha!)  Anyway, it wasn't till I read _The Book of the New Sun_
in my early twenties (is it possible?) that I really liked Wolfe.
5HC is the *last* place I'd recommend anyone start because it seems
the most pointless to me of any of Wolfe's novels, and others might
miss whatever point I'm missing.  But this is probably just a matter
of taste.

Jerry Friedman

--

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:58:02 +0000

> the hints there (along with others) that the narrator's name is Wolfe.
> Am I supposed to think that Mr. Million is the author (or a descendant)?

More: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own
beloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a canonical
list of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) The name is
quite fitting, too: the clone-series that includes Five, Maitre, and
the original of Mr. Million, is clearly a series of vicious predators
upon their fellow humans who use genetic manipulation to acheive their
ends -- that is, Number Five is a gene wolf. Gene, of course, is short
for "Eugene," well-born: that is exactly what Number Five is _not_. He
is simply gene, born. Etc., etc. This is full of the kind of play that
would delight Derrida if he could ever bring himself to read American
SF...

--Dan'l

--

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:15:52 +0000

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

> list of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) 

Really?  I thought the name thing was just a joke.  Not that the character
is supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence to the real
Wolfe.

-Rostrum

--

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:18:16 +0000

I wrote Rostrum wrote:

> > [Y]ou are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our own
> > beloved Gene Wolfe. 

> Really?  I thought the name thing was just a joke.  Not that the
> character is supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence
> to the real Wolfe.

Just started rereading 5HC. I'll respond to this (quite possibly by
devouring my share of crow) after I get through the first novella.

--

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From: John Barach <jbarach at telusplanet.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:28:26 +0000

Dan'l writes:

> More: you are to think that he is an n-th generation clone of our 
> own beloved Gene Wolfe. (I believe it was John Clute who gave a
> canonical list of arguments for that being Number Five's real name.) 
> The name is quite fitting, too: the clone-series that includes Five,
> Maitre, and the original of Mr. Million, is clearly a series of 
> vicious predators upon their fellow humans who use genetic 
> manipulation to acheive their ends -- that is, Number Five is a 
> gene wolf. Gene, of course, is short for "Eugene," well-born: that 
> is exactly what Number Five is _not_. He is simply gene, born. Etc.,
> etc. This is full of the kind of play that would delight Derrida if 
> he could ever bring himself to read American SF...

You'll find the arguments at Robert Borski's Cave Canem webpage
(http://webpages.charter.net/rborski/number5.html).  I note, though,
that he says "Number Five's name is the male equivalent of Jeannine or
Jean/Gene."  I'm not sure that "Jean" and "Gene" are really equivalents,
since "Gene" is short for "Eugene" and "Jean" (French) is the English
"John."

But I note with interest that (according to "'A Story,' by John V.
Marsch") on Sainte Anne, all boys are named "John."

   ... his mother called him John (which only signifies "a man,"
   all boy children being named *John*) Eastwind (Ace, p. 84).

If Number Five's name is the French male equivalent of Jeanette, then
he's called Jean, the English of which is John -- the standard name for
any boy on the neighbouring planet, and also the name of John V. Marsch.
Interesting, I said to myself, but significant...

Speaking of which, is there some significance to "Marsch"?  I note that
John Eastwind and John Sandwalker in "A Story" are named after
circumstances connected with their birth.  And what is John V. Marsch's
middle name?

John

--

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:18:44 +0000

> would delight Derrida if he could ever bring himself to read American

Well, Mr. Million is number 1 (or 2, being Number Five's great-
grandfather?), so maybe he _is_ the author, which is what I said.
I missed the "merely born" thing, though.  On the other hand, even
"born" is, in a sense, what Number Five is _not_--born of man and
woman, anyway.

Anyway, I've been reading Robert Borski's pages, and the parts that
I believe are answering a lot of questions.

Jerry Friedman

--

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:41:29 +0000

--- John Barach <jbarach at telusplanet.net> wrote:
...

> Speaking of which, is there some significance to "Marsch"?

A connection to the marshmen?

> I note that

Victor?  Borski speculates that Victor R(oy?) Trenchard added the
middle initial after killing the real Marsch and assuming his
identity.

Speaking of names, Borski doesn't mention that in _Zen and the
Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ "Phaedrus" is said to mean "wolf",
which would be strong support for his theory that Phaedria is Number
Five's half-sister.  (However, according to
<http://phaedrusdeinus.org/me/phaedrusdeinus.html>, that etymology
is not true.  Has this stuff all been discussed?)

Jerry Friedman

--

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:26:23 +0000

>would delight Derrida if he could ever bring himself to read American

Even if what you wrote isn't true, it ought to be. That's brilliant.

-Roy

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:28:48 +0000

> Even if what you wrote isn't true, it ought to be. That's brilliant.

This is why I said it was full of Derridean play. It doesn't have to
be intended by the author, only visible to the reader. While I have
a lot of reservations about a lot of pomo-ism, and do have some respect
for "what the author meant," I am fundamentally in agreement with the
pomo concept that, once the work is published, it is out of the artist's
hands and its "meaning" is what is generated in the space where it 
encounters a reader's mind, whether this is what the author intended
or no.

--Dan'l

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:48:14 +0000

From: "John Barach" <jbarach at telusplanet.net>

> circumstances connected with their birth.  And what is John V. Marsch's

Well, Victor. But V is also the Roman 5. 

-alga

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:56:58 +0000

At 11:52 AM 4/15/2002, you wrote:

   (As I

>Jerry Friedman

         Jerry, also notice that it is a whorehouse, the opposite of the 
church (Bride of Christ) in the Book of Revelation (The Great Harlot). 
Thus, 666. Also, the place is guarded by Cerberus, who guards the gates of 
hell. In Proverbs, the harlot's feet "extend down to sheol," and the 
opposition of Lady Wisdom and Harlot Folly in Proverbs 1-9 is immediate 
background to Bride versus Harlot in Revelation, and something Wolfe cannot 
fail to have missed. (Anyway, the abode of the antichrist is hell until he 
appears on earth, when "they want us.")

--

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:00:07 +0000

>is supposed to have any real relationship or resemblence to the real

         Methinks Dan'l is right. Gene Wolfe is pointing to the "heart of 
darkness" in everyman/woman, and using himself as an example. Number Five 
and Maitre are what Everyman could be -- and what Gene would be apart from 
saving grace. Remember: Wolfe believes in Original Sin. And there has been 
discussion here of the fact that evidently he has a "depressive 
personality." It all fits.

Nutria

--

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:10:58 +0000

>Interesting, I said to myself, but significant...

         Could all these "Johns" have come from "Buckaroo Banzai"? Well, I 
guess not, given the dates of writing and of the movie. But a John is a 
user of prostitutes, so the names fit with the larger "antichrist" theme in 
the book. It may be another truly dark hint, that the shapeshifters are 
imitating the wrong kind of people, "Johns" who frequent the "harlots" at 
666 rue de Saltimbanque. Does this remind us of the Book of the Short Sun? 
Yes, it does. What kind people will the shapeshifter/inhumi imitate? Kudos 
again to Gever for making the thematic connexions!
A comment on Borski's Je m'appelle Jean Loup
from his website. He writeth:

Although the title novella of THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS is narrated in the 
first person, and there are countless interactions between the narrator and 
the other characters of the novella, the only name ever attached to him is 
Number Five, which comes from Maitre, his father, and refers to his clonal 
nature. And yet it is possible to work out Number Five's real name from 
certain clues within the novella.

Our first clue comes early in the text, when at the public library, Number 
Five attempts to locate books written by his father, the authorship of 
which he has found out about from the mysterious lady in pink. Where does 
he begin his search? In the "W" holdings, where he finds books by Kate 
Wilhelm, Bernard Wolfe, Virginia Woolf, and Vernor Vinge (the VV of V.Vinge 
having apparently been misread as "Winge" by some errant librarian). Number 
Five concludes his search by saying he never found any books by his father, 
but it now seems reasonable to assume his last name begins with W.

Later then, just before Number Five is first given his numerical nickname, 
he says, in response to his father's telling him he may pick his own name, 
"It seemed to me quite impossible that I should have any name other than 
the two words which were, in some mystic sense I only respected without 
understanding, my name."

         Me: I would add that the "mystic sense" has to do with genetics 
(gene) and the lupine (man is a wolf to man) character of the family. 
Borski adds:

So now we know Number Five's name consists of two words, the latter of 
which begins with W.

Enter into Number Five's life Maitre's sister, who introduces herself as 
Aunt Jeannine. Later, however, we learn that Aunt Jeannine is a female 
variant of Number Five's father (and since Number Five himself is cloned 
from the same source), so inferentially this allows us to assume Number 
Five's name is the male equivalent of Jeannine or Jean/Gene.

As for the "W" patronym, besides the library reference, Number Five remarks 
that his house is sometimes referred to as Maison du Chien (because of its 
statue of Cerberus) and that this "may have been a reference to our surname 
as well." Chien usually means dog in French, but it can also mean wolf.

Ergo, our narrator's name, is Gene Wolf(e), although given the prevalence 
of French in Port-Mimizon, it might just as easily be Jean Loup.

         Me: But it's interesting that it's not. It's "Gene" and "Wolfe." 
(Thank goodness Wolfe did not have No. 5 looking under "L" for his father's 
writings, or else probably even Borski would not have figured it out!) So, 
we have the American Gene Wolfe living in the New Orleans French society. 
(And Wolfe did live in Nawlns in his childhood, right?)

Nutria

--

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:58:36 +0000

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, James Jordan wrote:

> saving grace. 

I agree with this, but I think it is a symbolic connection rather than a
literal one.  That is, I don't think we should expect #5 to look like our
own Mr. Wolfe nor look for clues that the family has held on to a single
name since the 20th century.  But by giving #5 and Maitre his own name,
Wolfe is implying something along the lines you suggest.

-Rostrum

--

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 19:15:11 +0000

--- James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net> wrote:
> own
> character

     Thanks, fur-bearing one!  This comment and your previous one
were helpful.
     If Wolfe is going to suggest that the main character of "5HC"
is himself, I think it's all right for me to continue the discussion
of his personality.  In his interviews he strikes me as rather
arrogant (of course he has a very big lot to be proud of), and
someone on rasfw called him "nasty", "rude", and "a prick" after
seeing him on a panel; that's consistent with arrogance.  (See
<http://groups.google.com/groups%3Fq%3Drec.arts.sf.written%2BWolfe%2B%2522in%2Bperson%2522%26hl%3Den%26selm%3Dabridge-89B1E3.11172601092000%2540news.dcn.davis.ca.us%26rnum%3D1>--I
hope this shortene [!] URL works.)  On
the other hand, people have inferred that he has tendencies to
self-doubt and depression, which probably includes self-accusation.
This is exactly the combination that someone would need to see himself
as so arrogant that (if, as you say, he let slip his reception of the
divine grace he believes in) he could embark on a project to find out
why he wasn't as powerful as he should be and make himself into the
anti-Christ in the process.

By the way, am I supposed to think that the Gene Wolfes in 5HC are
*really* becoming the anti-Christ, or are freeing their inner
anti-Christ, just as good Christians believe that God is within
them and try to imitate Christ?

According to the headlines, if Wolfe did want to clone himself, it's
probably possible now.  There could be duplicates available when the
Mr. Million part of the project becomes feasible and if the
starcrossing part does.

Jerry Friedman

--

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 19:54:12 +0000

> devouring my share of crow) after I get through the first novella.

Okay, I don't think I am up for a corvid sandwich at this point, but
only because of my rather cautious wording above: I said you are 
supposed to think that #5 is a clone of the "real" Wolfe, but I did
_not_ say that he is. As Nutria observes, this identification may be
symbolic, but is definitely more than _just_ symbolic; Wolfe is pointing
to what he himself could, potentially, become. 

The primary evidence that the "original" may be "our" Wolfe is the
photograph of Number Five's mother, first displayed on pp25-6 of 
the Ace edition:

	... a photograph utilizing, as I supposed, some novelty
	technique which washed away all color save a light brown.
	It was small, and from its general appearance and crumbling
	edges very old. It showed a girl of twenty-five or so, thin
	and as nearly as I could judge rather tall, standing beside
	a stocky young man on a paved walkway and holding a baby.
	The walkway ran along the front of a remarkable house, a 
	very long wooden house only a story in height, with a porch
	or veranda that changed its architectural style every twenty
	or thirty feet so as to gvie almost the impression of a 
	number of exceedingly narrow houses constructed with their 
	side walls in contact. I mention this detail, which I hardly
	noticed at the time, because I have so often since my 
	release from prison tried to find some trace of this house. 
	When I was first shown in the picture I was much more 
	interested in the girl's face, and the baby's. The latter
	was in fact scarcely visible, he being nearly smothered in
	white wool blankets. The girl had large features and a 
	brilliant smile which held a suggestion of that rarely
	seen charm which is at once careless, poetic, and sly. 
	Gypsy, was my first thought, but her complexion was surely
	too fair for that. Since on this world we are all descended
	from a relatively small group of colonists, we are rather
	a uniform population, but my studies had given me some 
	familiarity with the original Terrestrial races, and my 
	second guess, almost a certainty, was Celtic. "Wales," I
	said aloud. "Or Scotland. Or Ireland." 

	"What?" ... My aunt looked at me acutely and said, "You're
	right. I'll send for you and we'll talk about this when 
	we've more leisure."

(That discussion, of course, never comes.) 

What I would like to know is whether Gene Wolfe actually has 
this photograph in his possession, and, if so, who it depicts,
and where.

--Dan'l

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:37:14 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <ddanehy at siebel.com>
> It was small, a

<snip>

> this photograph in his possession, and, if so, who it depicts,

I am irresistably reminded of the pictures that hold the replicants' fake
identity/memory in BLADE RUNNER.

    hartshorn

--

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:19:12 +0000

On 16/04/2002 20:15:11 Jerry Friedman wrote:

Sheesh...

><http://groups.google.com/groups%3Fq%3Drec.arts.sf.written%2BWolfe%2B%2522in%2Bp

>erson%2522%26hl%3Den%26selm%3Dabridge-89B1E3.11172601092000%2540news.dcn.davis.c

>a.us%26rnum%3D1>--I

Reading the Urth (and the late Whorl) lists has made me think about the
way I read.  The regular (and apparently unending) unurthing of things I'd
not noticed brought me to the onclusion that I was generally an uncritical
reader.

Reading that rasfw thread however maybe I'm too hard on myself.  If I lack
insight then in comparison some of the contributors to the thread are
close to brain death.  I can understand if ones taste simply doesn't run
to the baroque use of language but for someone who'se read it to say
"Severian is a man with a good memory" beggars belief.

Thanks too Jerry for reminding me why I gave up reading rasfw.  :-)

Matthew

--

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From: Jason Voegele <jason at jvoegele.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:18:56 +0000

> is himself, I think it's all right for me to continue the discussion of
> his personality.  In his interviews he strikes me as rather
>seeing him on a panel; that's consistent with arrogance.

FWIW, when I met Wolfe he seemed a very kind and friendly man.  I was at a 
convention and just happened to be standing near by when he signed in (he 
was guest of honor).  He introduced himself to me and we talked for a few 
moments, and when it became clear to him that I would not be able to make 
the book signing that was being held later that day, he sat down with me, 
signed my books, and we talked for maybe ten minutes.  David Brin was also 
at the convention and I had a copy of STARTIDE RISING for him to sign.  
Wolfe offered to sign that one as well, claiming that he "knew how to 
spell 'Brin'".  He was very polite and had a richly subtle sense of humor.

That said, given an incident at that same convention when David Brin was 
speaking on a panel discussion, you might also make the claim that he is 
quite arrogant, although I'd say rather that he is firm in his convictions 
and outspoken in his opinion.  I sat next to Wolfe during a panel 
discussion on which Brin was speaking (Wolfe was not part of the panel, 
just in the audience).  Brin was stating something to the effect 
of "sitting around watching television all day isn't such a bad thing.  
It's certainly better than what we did a few hundred years ago, sitting 
around staring at a fire."

Wolfe took strong objection to this, and shouted, interrupting Brin, 
something along the lines of "Anybody who believes that is living in a 
dream land."  Brin retorted, essentially saying the same thing he did 
before, that sitting around watching television as so many people do now is 
a better thing than what people did in the past, sitting around staring at 
a fire.  Wolfe's final comment was "sitting around the fire, *talking*".  
After a few moments, he and his wife stood up and left the room.

Perhaps this was the same panel discussion that the r.a.sf.w poster 
witnessed.  I was surprised when Wolfe had interrupted Brin's speech, but I 
can't say I disagreed with him.  Whether you'd call this arrogant, I don't 
know, but maybe it shows the two sides of Wolfe's personality (Silkhorn may 
be more real than we know).  I certainly can't agree that he's "nasty, 
rude, and a prick."  I'd invite him to dinner any time.

Anyway, I'm feeling guilty now about treading into Wolfe's personal life, 
so I'll stop.

Jason Voegele

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:26:39 +0000

mantis said:

> Well hey, if people are still perculating on 5HC, get on over to
> Ultan's Library and read the two essays there.  First by Peter
> Wright, who, as I've written before, does a great job on the
> post-colonialist interpretation of 5HC; and then the response by our
> favorite Robert Borski, which I especially like since he says pretty
> much what I would have said, and he does it better than I probably
> would have.

Agreed.  Three cheers (or little creepy stars) for Borski.

Going back to alga's comment on the cruelty of 5HC, I think part of
what amazes me about the book is that it's a beautiful _trap_ for the
characters, of the only "fair" kind--Number 5 and V.R.T. are
physically imprisoned (one released) but the real traps are their
selves.  "All he can do forever, it seems, is become more like
himself," as Borski puts it.  mantis mentions Camus, but I think of a
reversal of Sartre (of course, one hardly original to Wolfe): "Hell is
not other people, but built out of a certain kind of constructed
self."

Wright's essay is good, but I must also raise issue with the notion of
"the isolated intellectual Wolfe favours throughout much of his
fiction."  Isolated intellectuals like Severian and Silk and Horn?
Where are the isolated intellectuals of Wolfe?

--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:40:21 +0000

So to what extent are the Proust and Coleridge "encapsulations" in the
5HC novella _essential_ to the theme, and to what extent does Wolfe do
this kind of thing just because he can?

--

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:45:13 +0000

--- Jason Voegele <jason at jvoegele.com> wrote:
> of

Being nice to fans and having a richly subtle sense of humor (I do
like that offer) strike me as totally consistent with arrogance.

> and outspoken in his opinion.
 [snip story]

> witnessed.

Different one--the panel mentioned by "Infozombie" in rasfw was
at a librarians' convention, and the other panelists were Joan Vinge
and Joan Slonczewski.

> I was surprised when Wolfe had interrupted Brin's speech,
> but I 

He could certainly have been far more polite to Brin.  "I disagree
with you completely, because..."  Of course, no one's at his best on
hearing something that he violently dislikes.

> Anyway, I'm feeling guilty now about treading into Wolfe's personal

Well, as I said, if he creates a character with his name who's
totally consistent with being himself (as far as I can tell, anyway),
I think he's permitting speculation that the character is a
self-portrait of some kind or other, which leads to discussion of his
own character.

It's worth noting that we take Silk to be Wolfe's portrayal of a
good person, and Silk is given to being "merciless" (as Silkhorn
puts it) with himself.  Wolfe may have thought he was being a good
person in being so merciless with himself that he envisioned
himself as Number Five and his father.

To be fair, I should probably admit that what I'm speculating was
Wolfe's problem, at least at the time of writing 5HC, is something I
have a problem with myself--excessive pride and excessive self-
condemnation.  I may be seeing only what I'm familiar with, but on
the other hand, I am presenting reasons for seeing it.

Jerry Friedman

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:48:20 +0000

> Wolfe is implying something along the lines you suggest.

As I said in an earlier e-mail, Wolfe has survived to the 21st
century and there's no need for holding onto names.  More to the
point, the possibility that he could be cloned someday was probably
a reasonable sf assumption in 1972.

Also, note that the Gene Wolfes of 5HC are both engineers and writers,
like our hero.

How about looks?  Anyone know what Wolfe looked like when he wrote
that story?

Perhaps even more to the point, the story strikes me as *much* more
chilling if we take it as Wolfe recognizing this potential in
himself.

Jerry Friedman

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:22:49 +0000

Another random minor 5HC tidbit:

The man in black who arrests V.R.T. being from (at least for the
moment) The Department of Public Works, Subdepartment of Sewers and
Drains could be a nice little nod to Solzhenitsyn's "The History of
Our Sewage Disposal System" except 5HC is 1972 and _The Gulag
Archipelago_ didn't come out until 1973 in the US.

--

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:31:45 +0000

>chilling if we take it as Wolfe recognizing this potential in

I guess so. But my point, and I think Wolfe's, was "theological" and 
thematic. No. 5 is Everyman -- eschatological humanity moving toward 
"antichrist" -- apart from grace. No. 5's real name could be "James Jordan" 
or "Jerry Friedman" or even "Alice Turner." ;-)
         I suspect "antichrist" may be thematically more important than 
I've previously thought. Recall that Christ died for others, whereas the 
people in 5HC are constantly making others die for them. Christ reached out 
to others and taught that he who would be great must be servant of all, the 
opposite of what the powerful people in the first and third novellas are doing.

FWIW.

Nutria

--

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 06:26:02 +0000

> From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu>

> Archipelago_ didn't come out until 1973 in the US.

Vaguely recalled from a transcribed radio interview of Wolfe:
	"The Fifth Head of Cerberus" was written about 1971-2; Wolfe used it
for a workshop story where Knight was teaching. Knight offered to
publish it if Wolfe could supply two other novellas to go with it. THE
FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS, the volume including the three stories, came out
about 1976, so Wolfe had plenty of time to read Solzhenitsyn and turn in
"V.R.T." later.

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

--

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From: Tom Foster <t.foster2 at ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:10:55 +0000

I've been following the recent discussions of 5HC with a good deal of
interest. My introduction to Wolfe was _The Shadow of the Torturer_ (the
best possible introduction IMHO), which I came to via Jack Vance's _Dying
Earth_ books. I read 5HC shortly afterwards, but had never returned to it
since (many years having now elapsed). The recent discussions of it piqued
my interest (it's one of the only 'major' Wolfe books that I had not read
more than once) and I've been reading it for the past few days. I enjoyed it
considerably more this time around, perhaps because when I first read it I
was only around 15 and didn't understand/appreciate many of its qualities.
I'm not sure that I would consider it an especially good introduction to
Wolfe as it is convoluted even by his standards and requires a lot of
thought and involvement from the reader. It also lacks a stong central
character like Severian, Silk or Horn (or even Latro), the depiction of
which is where Wolfe excels, I feel. I think that had it been my first Wolfe
I would have enjoyed it but not particularly felt the need to seek out other
works by him, whereas having read _Shadow_ I immediately wanted to find out
what else this author had written.

With regards to the issue of whether or not the abos possessed the ability
to shape change, I am inclined to agree with those who feel that this was
probably not the case. There are no instances in the book where we are
positively told that a character has morphed into something else. Sandwalker
*seems* to become an otter (though this is only part of a story written by
VRT(?) anyhow), VRT assumes John V Marsch's identity but still looks younger
than him, VRT's mother could make herself look older by doing certain
things, etc, but nothing concrete.

I thought it was interesting to note the apparent similarities between the
inhumi and the abos. There is a mention of an abo looking like a piece of
"old wood", compared to the liana staff of Silkhorn (and indeed the liana
itself shows up again in 'A Story'). Also, the ability to shapeshift, which
the inhumi certainly possess in comparison to the abos' rumoured ability.

Anyway, thanks to the group for inspiring me to re-read 5HC and also to
Robert Borski for his useful insights at Cave Canem.

Tom

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