{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3161", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3161, "subject": "Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "messages": 12, "voices": 8, "first": "2002-04-17T12:27:46+00:00", "last": "2002-04-18T17:42:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigel.a.price at virgin.net" }, "date": "2002-04-17T12:27:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Well, I've finally read through all those Urth lists that you posted while\nI was away. I didn't know what \"geritol\" was, but was surprised to read of\nMarc's apparent surprise that someone only in their mid-forties could\nalready be pontificating, patronising and dull. Read on, Marc, read on! And\nthen there was Nick Gever's splendid article on Wolfe in the Washington\nPost. Let me pick things up there, if I may...)\n\nI really enjoyed your excellent article in the Washington Post, Dr Nick.\nThank you for that.\n\nCan I pose a few comments and queries?\n\nWas the section of the article entitled \"Running the Maze\" meant as an\nimplicit reference to the story \"A Solar Labyrinth\"? In that part of your\nessay, you explicitly compare Wolfe's literary technique to that of the maze\nbuilder:\n\n\t\"The first challenge: Wolfe makes demands\n\tof the reader that are at some points\n\texorbitant. He has the instincts of a\n\tmystery writer: He erects mazes of\n\tpractical and symbolic clues, including\n\tplentiful red herrings, that require acute\n\tdetective faculties to decode, and he\n\trarely explains himself at the end.\"\n\nLet me put my question another way: do you think that \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is\nin some way an allegory or metaphor for Wolfe's methods as a writer? I think\nthat that would be my current interpretation. Although, on reading the\nstory, the initial temptation is to make the obvious connection between the\nstory's narrator and its author, I think that the maze builder in the story\nis also in some sense Wolfe, who uses materials drawn from diverse sources\nto construct his labyrinthine tales. There remains the possibility, however,\nthat the maze builder stands also in some sort of symbolic relationship with\nGod, the cunning author of the created world.\n\nIn \"A Solar Labyrinth\", the maze is created not by the cunning arrangement\nof the various objects placed in the garden, but rather, by the shadows\nthese cunningly arranged objects cast. As the sun moves, so these shadows\nmove, and the maze itself changes, thereby making it very much harder to\nsolve.\n\nNow, there seems to be a playfully Platonic element to all this, what with\nthe maze solvers thwarted by shadows rather than even the things themselves,\nwhich is highly characteristic of Wolfe's writing, where hierarchies abound\nand resonant patterns of resemblances simultaneously hide and evoke the\nhidden purposes of God. After all, the first volume of The Book of the New\nSun is titled, not for the torturer himself, but for his shadow, and in\nchapter XXIV of that volume, we read the assertion: \"The Increate maintains\nall things in order surely; and the theologicans say light is his shadow.\"\nOf course, the Increate's order can only be seen dimly, glimpsed\noccasionally and apprehended partially as events throw distorted shadows of\na higher reality. Even those things which seem to depict the Increate's\npurposes most clearly are but pale imitations of the ideals they suggest.\nConversely, however, the sun may shine even on a torturer, and even his\nshadow may show something greater than himself. (Where is it in TBotNS that\nSeverian is caught by the light of the rising sun and casts a gigantic\nshadow? I think that it must be somewhere in TSotL, some time during his\ncrossing of the mountains after his sojourn in Thrax.)\n\nBut I have gone too far down this track. Let me return to the author as maze\nbuilder. Ignoring for the moment that other great maze in Wolfe's writing,\nnamely the labyrinth encountered by the Student (\"Theseus\" because of his\n\"thesis\"!) in his search for the navicaput, as told in an inset tale in\nTBotNS, what should we make of the movement of the shadows in \"A Solar\nLabyrinth\"? (Come to think of it, don't the channels in the maritime maze\nthreaded by the Student also move and change about? They do! They do!)\n\nIt has often seemed to me that while Wolfe does on occasion invest certain\ncharacters and events with quite specific symbolism, the identification is\nusually fleeting and evanescent. Severian in some sense takes on the role of\nChrist when he resists Typhon's three-fold temptations, but as the author\nhas insisted elsewhere, Severian is not Jesus, for all that he may be a\npilgrim making a long and difficult journey towards God. (And yes, I reject\nWright's suggestion that Severian's mission is wholly sham and solely a\nfront for the entirely Machiavellian manipulations of hideous Hierodules.)\n\nTo take another example: at the end of TBotLS, it seemed to me for a moment\nthat Blue and Green stood in polar opposition as possible destinations for\nthe colonists. The Whorl was a false world from which life must ultimately\npass, but the next world could be either heaven (Blue) or hell (Green). Such\na stark contrast is considerably moderated by TBotSS, where Blue is revealed\nto be much less heavenly, although it is debatable as to whether Green is\nactually less hellish. (Life and love are at least possible there, albeit\nunder appalling conditions.) But the overall pattern in TBotSS is\ntripartite, not binary, and the simple heaven-hell dichotomy of the\ndestinations in TBotLS is no longer applicable.\n\nIt does seem to me that meanings shift in Wolfe's stories, just as the\nshadows shift in his fictional solar labyrinth.\n\nMy second query about the Washington Post article is of a somewhat different\nnature. In the article, words following colons have their initial letters in\nupper case. Is this common practice in the States, or is it a typographical\nideosyncrasy of the Washington Post? Normally, at least in the UK, unless\nthe next item is a proper noun, colons are followed by all lower case,\nunless, for example, a colon is used to introduce a quotation or tabular\nlist in which the first element is a sentence in its own right. But this use\nis essentially for a table or a set of bullet points, not for a\nconventional, continuous sentence. Sorry if this is \"off topic\", but it is\nof professional interest to some of us. Any thoughts, any one?\n\n(But wait a moment! Now I look more closely, the convention seems to be\ninconsistently applied. Here is an example of an upper case letter following\na colon: \"And he has told many: Twenty-two novels and several hundred short\nstories bear his name, all wondrous and enrichingly strange.\" But look at\nthe first sentence of the quotation given below. The word after the colon,\nin this instance \"length\", starts with a lower case letter, as I would\nnormally expect. Strange.)\n\nA final query, and this time a request for clarification. Nick, you wrote:\n\n\t\"A second challenge: length. Wolfe's\n\tgreat novels aggregate into a most\n\tformidable labyrinth of words,\n\ta meta-novel 4,000 pages and 13 volumes\n\tlong; to ingest the whole takes time,\n\twhich the 21st century does not afford\n\tin abundance. But there are subseries\n\tthat can be read singly. And the whole,\n\tits four main sections resonating\n\ttogether, is a grand masterpiece to be\n\tset alongside the best of Crowley,\n\tPynchon and Updike: the entirety of\n\thuman spiritual, political and colonial\n\texperience is its theme, addressed with\n\tastonishingly versatile acuity.\"\n\nWhen you say that Wolfe's great meta-novel has 13 volumes, are you including\n\"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" as part of the Briah Cycle? I have to agree\nwith those who have said that while 5HC is a good thematic introduction of\nWolfe, it surely isn't meant to be part of the New Sun-Long Sun-Short Sun\nseries.\n\nSo, when you write about the \"four main sections\" of the meta-novel, do you\nmean 5HC-New Sun-Long Sun-Short Sun, or do you mean New Sun-Urth-Long\nSun-Short Sun?\n\nI was puzzled - but only about these details. I still think that it's a\ngreat article and a fine introduction to Wolfe.\n\nNigel\n\n\"Planet Urth is Blue\nAnd there's nothing that I can do...\"\n\t(David Bowie comes out in support of Marc)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "jason at jvoegele.com" }, "date": "2002-04-17T14:17:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me put my question another way: do you think that \"A Solar\nLabyrinth\" is in some way an allegory or metaphor for Wolfe's methods\nas a writer? I think that that would be my current interpretation.\nAlthough, on reading the story, the initial temptation is to make the\nobvious connection between the story's narrator and its author, I think\nthat the maze builder in the story is also in some sense Wolfe, who\nuses materials drawn from diverse sources to construct his labyrinthine\ntales. There remains the possibility, however, that the maze builder\nstands also in some sort of symbolic relationship with God, the cunning\nauthor of the created world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION, Clute asserts that \"A Solar \nLabyrinth\" is a \"meta-fiction\" about the entire Urth sequence. I never \nunderstood why until I read your post.\n\nThanks.\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-17T15:19:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few Nutricious thoughts on an excellent essay:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:27 AM 4/17/2002, Nigel wrote:\nLet me put my question another way: do you think that \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is\nin some way an allegory or metaphor for Wolfe's methods as a writer? I think\nthat that would be my current interpretation. Although, on reading the\nstory, the initial temptation is to make the obvious connection between the\nstory's narrator and its author, I think that the maze builder in the story\nis also in some sense Wolfe, who uses materials drawn from diverse sources\nto construct his labyrinthine tales. There remains the possibility, however,\nthat the maze builder stands also in some sort of symbolic relationship with\nGod, the cunning author of the created world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It's both, surely. Man is the image of God. Think of \"The Last \nThrilling Wonder Story\" (is that right?). I like the idea that this story \nis designed to say something about Wolfe as well as something about God. \nMakes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " (And yes, I reject\nWright's suggestion that Severian's mission is wholly sham and solely a\nfront for the entirely Machiavellian manipulations of hideous Hierodules.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Yes, surely. This interpretation makes sense only if Sev. is some \nkind of antichrist in an antiuniverse made by an antigod -- which is what I \nthought the first time through. But Wolfe has made it plain that this is \nnot the case at all, and the thesis does not stand up on rereading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To take another example: at the end of TBotLS, it seemed to me for a moment\nthat Blue and Green stood in polar opposition as possible destinations for\nthe colonists. The Whorl was a false world from which life must ultimately\npass," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Partly false, but partly the \"Old Testament,\" right? Not evil per \nse, but a womb that must be forsaken for life in the outer world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " but the next world could be either heaven (Blue) or hell (Green). Such\na stark contrast is considerably moderated by TBotSS, where Blue is revealed\nto be much less heavenly, although it is debatable as to whether Green is\nactually less hellish. (Life and love are at least possible there, albeit\nunder appalling conditions.) But the overall pattern in TBotSS is\ntripartite, not binary, and the simple heaven-hell dichotomy of the\ndestinations in TBotLS is no longer applicable.\n\nIt does seem to me that meanings shift in Wolfe's stories, just as the\nshadows shift in his fictional solar labyrinth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Not sure I buy this scheme. I don't think Blue and Green are \nheaven and hell so much as alternative possibilities in the \"New Covenant\" \nworld outside the womb of the archaic world of the Whorl. I'm not trying to \noverlay the Roman Empire into which the Church went onto the Blue/Green \nsituation, just saying that this kind of model makes more sense to me. The \ninhumi are at one level like the pagan gentiles who need to be brought into \nthe new covenant world by the humans. But when the humans (like the Church) \nbehave badly, one can hardly expect the inhumi-gentiles to behave well. So, \nI don't think Blue/Green are heaven/hell but the new situation in the new \npost-archaic world.\n And thus I'm not sure the imagery really shifts. Returning to the \nWhorl is like returning to the womb of the past to recover things that were \nvaluable but have been left behind.\n Where the imagery does seem to shift is right at the end, when \nSilkhorn goes back to the Whorl for a new journey. Yet, since this \"imagery \nmodel\" is far from everything that Wolfe has put into the LS-SS narrative, \nthis is not so much a shift of imagery as a fulfilling of another zone of \nimagery. Or, perhaps (and I'll bet this is part of it), Wolfe is suggesting \nthat moving from archaic (under lesser gods/angels) to \"humanist\" (\"mankind \ncome of age\" under the One God without angels) is something that happens \nover and over in history as an application of the basic shift from the \noriginal archaic Ur-world to the New Covenant by the Theoanthropos. Or, \nmaybe even, as the heirogrammates were the humans of an earlier creation \nwho now are acting like angels in Briah, so Silkhorn goes to the Whorl with \nhis family to be a new Pas & Co. superintending the next archaic phase. \n(Maybe it wasn't the heirogrammates but some other Yesod bunch; I can't \nrecall.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My second query about the Washington Post article is of a somewhat different\nnature. In the article, words following colons have their initial letters in\nupper case. Is this common practice in the States, or is it a typographical\nideosyncrasy of the Washington Post? Normally, at least in the UK, unless\nthe next item is a proper noun, colons are followed by all lower case,\nunless, for example, a colon is used to introduce a quotation or tabular\nlist in which the first element is a sentence in its own right. But this use\nis essentially for a table or a set of bullet points, not for a\nconventional, continuous sentence. Sorry if this is \"off topic\", but it is\nof professional interest to some of us. Any thoughts, any one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " As an editor, I can tell you that the US practice is to capitalize \nafter a colon if what follows is a complete sentence, and not to do so if \nwhat follows is merely a list or not a full sentence. E.g.,\n This is what I meant: Blue and Green are not heaven and hell.\n This is what I bought: apples, oranges, and pears.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-17T16:10:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "        As an\neditor, I can tell you that the US practice is to capitalize after a\ncolon if what follows is a complete sentence, and not to do so if what\nfollows is merely a list or not a full sentence. E.g.,\n        This is\nwhat I meant: Blue and Green are not heaven and hell.\n        This is\nwhat I bought: apples, oranges, and pears.\nNutria\n" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although (to a UK typographer) that is correct it doesn't illustrate the\npoint you made because Blue (In this context) is a proper noun and would\nbe capitalized any way. [I almost wrote \"in cany case\" ;) ]\n\nThe colon in UK English often provides for what *could* have been written\nas two independent sentences bing linked: thus a lower case initial letter\nwould be used.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-17T22:10:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Nigel Price wrote:\n(Well, I've finally read through all those Urth lists that you posted\nwhile\nI was away. I didn't know what \"geritol\" was, but was surprised to read\nof\nMarc's apparent surprise that someone only in their mid-forties could\nalready be pontificating, patronising and dull." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(For me it was the white hair.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Read on, Marc, read on! And\nthen there was Nick Gever's splendid article on Wolfe in the Washington\nPost." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI too was really impressed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ignoring for the moment that other great maze in Wolfe's writing,\nnamely the labyrinth encountered by the Student (\"Theseus\" because of\nhis \"thesis\"!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's one I never thought of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in his search for the navicaput, as told in an inset tale in\nTBotNS, what should we make of the movement of the shadows in \"A Solar\nLabyrinth\"? (Come to think of it, don't the channels in the maritime\nmaze\nthreaded by the Student also move and change about? They do! They do!)\n\nIt has often seemed to me that while Wolfe does on occasion invest\ncertain\ncharacters and events with quite specific symbolism, the identification\nis\nusually fleeting and evanescent. Severian in some sense takes on the\nrole of\nChrist when he resists Typhon's three-fold temptations, but as the\nauthor\nhas insisted elsewhere, Severian is not Jesus, for all that he may be a\npilgrim making a long and difficult journey towards God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nAn excellent point. Or maybe Severian had a Christ-like incident\nhappen to him.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Planet Urth is Blue\nAnd there's nothing that I can do...\"\n\t(David Bowie comes out in support of Marc)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL! So I forgive you for sticking the tune in my head.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T02:55:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman quoted Nigel Price and wrote:\nIgnoring for the moment that other great maze in Wolfe's writing,\nnamely the labyrinth encountered by the Student (\"Theseus\" because of\nhis \"thesis\"!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's one I never thought of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. So you might be in the market for a (U.S.S.) Monitor as the Minotaur, eh?\n\nFantastic worlds await you!\n\n(Gee, this is like making balloon animals as party favors--actually I wish\nI could make balloon animals this easily. That would be a useful skill!)\n\nAhem. On another tangent, gushing about \"A Solar Labyrinth\" must be\ntempered by noting the very creepy ending. Or so it seems to me.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nPEACE INDEXICON update SOON!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T15:43:10+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantically speaking," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wow. So you might be in the market for a (U.S.S.) Monitor as\nthe Minotaur, eh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More plausible than you might think. The famous Civil War ironclad \nbattle was not, as often reported between the Monitor and the \nMerrimac, but between the USS Monitor and a scuttled Federal ship \nwhose name had been Merrimack -- with a K -- that had been converted \ninto the CSS Virginia.\n\nVirginia. Land of virgins. And who were the Young Man trying to\nrescue? H'mmmm... \n\n--That Annoying Cockaroach" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at cybercityhk.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T16:09:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n\nMore plausible than you might think. The famous Civil War ironclad\nbattle was not, as often reported between the Monitor and the\nMerrimac, but between the USS Monitor and a scuttled Federal ship\nwhose name had been Merrimack -- with a K -- that had been converted\ninto the CSS Virginia.\n\nVirginia. Land of virgins. And who were the Young Man trying to\nrescue? H'mmmm..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a half-baked reading of this story. I take it as very pertinent to\nJonas, and perhaps Serverian reading it to him is the final straw in Jonas'\ndesperation to escape.\n\nMaybe Jonas is the \"son\", constructed of dream-stuff - a poetic description\nof a robot (the abrupt manner in which the son appears is suggestive perhaps\nof a robot activating). The fairytale is a dim remembrance of an expedition\nagainst some alien power oppressing earth in the early space-faring days of\na previous civilization, perhaps not too far distant from our own time. The\nalien power one assumes is the origin of Abaia. The watery labyrinth\ncorresponds perhaps to some hyperspatial analog, in which space-farers\neasily lose themselves. It is said somewhere that ships often became lost in\nthe depths of space over long periods.\n\nPerhaps the \"dream son\" is generic - robots as commanders of the vessels,\nmore likely to remain reliable & operative over long missions.\n\nCertainly Jonas' ship must have become lost - it cannot be that they\nintentionally delayed their return for aeons, because of course there would\nbe no reason to suppose the existence of a port to welcome their return, or\nindeed the existence of anything in particular on Earth so far in the\nfuture.\n\n I have an even more half-baked theory that American elements in the Brown\nBook tales are intended (by Wolfe) as chronological markers - so this story,\nwith Civil War resonances, occurs later than the story of Frog, which is\nkind of colonial. The \"classical\" motifs tell us the type of story - Romulus\n& Remus in \"Frog\" marks the founding of an empire; Theseus & the Minotaur in\n\"Student\" for the rise of a new power against the established order (Athens\nagainst the Minoan empire)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T16:31:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blattid quoted and wrote:\nWow. So you might be in the market for a (U.S.S.) Monitor as\nthe Minotaur, eh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More plausible than you might think. The famous Civil War ironclad\nbattle was not, as often reported between the Monitor and the\nMerrimac, but between the USS Monitor and a scuttled Federal ship\nwhose name had been Merrimack -- with a K -- that had been converted\ninto the CSS Virginia.\n\nVirginia. Land of virgins. And who were the Young Man trying to\nrescue? H'mmmm..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah come on, blattid--I =wrote= that essay (published 9 years ago, fwiw),\nand now you're just spoiling all the fun for Jerry Friedman's voyage of\ndiscovery!\n\nI am not kidding: there is a world of wonder in just examining the stories\nfrom the brown book.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nPEACE INDEXICON update SOON!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at cybercityhk.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T16:52:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" \nI am not kidding: there is a world of wonder in just examining the stories\nfrom the brown book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Parallels maybe between the Brown Book stories (plus the other \"fairy\nstories\") and the story told by \"Loyal to the Group of 17\". In both cases,\nnarratives constructed from \"recycled\", formulaic components (myths and\nslogans), in the absence of language to express them directly ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T17:12:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah come on, blattid--I =wrote= that essay (published 9 years ago, fwiw),\nand now you're just spoiling all the fun for Jerry Friedman's voyage of\ndiscovery!\n\nI am not kidding: there is a world of wonder in just examining the stories\nfrom the brown book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh? Don't know the essay in question. I suppoese I really ought to\nget hold of the Lexicon some time ... I was just following up (albeit\nin an indirect way) on my thought about the \"Brown Book\" tales being\nkin to Jesus' parables. Which, btw, I think Andrew's reading continues\nvery neatly." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T17:42:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an amazing article", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Andrew Bollen wrote:\n[A little thread splicing for a combined reply]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message -----Blattid quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wow. So you might be in the market for a (U.S.S.) Monitor as\nthe Minotaur, eh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "More plausible than you might think. The famous Civil War ironclad" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------\nThis message has been truncated, as it exceeded the maximum size\nof 0k as specified by the system administrator.\nThe sender of this message has been notified of the problem.\n----------------------------------------------------------------" } ] } ] }