{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3167", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3167, "subject": "Blues vs Greens", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-04-18T08:52:39+00:00", "last": "2002-04-18T16:20:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at cybercityhk.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T08:52:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After a few failed attempts to subscribe - Ha! Mainframe at last! Now to integrate ...\n\nBlue and Green whorls had me thinking of Blue & Green factions in the Roman & Byzantine worlds. Originally the colors of different chariot racing teams in the circus, and by extension their fans, the \"colors\" became established as part of the state during the Gleichshaltungen of the later empire & early Byzantine times. Merged with the claques of the theater, the fan factions had the ceremonial function of praising the emperor during his public appearances. \n\nOver hundreds of years, throughout the empire, Blues & Greens would periodically erupt into factional violence against each other, causing widespread death & destruction. Modern analyses generally eschew attempts to tag class, religious or other \"objective\" division onto this rivalry. If you were a Blue, you supported the noble Blues against the contemptible Greens, and vice versa. Not class warfare, but soccer hooliganism, on a large, empire-wide scale, from the Emperor on downwards.\n\"The population in every city has for a long been divided into two groups, the Greens and the Blues ... The members of each faction fight with their opponents not knowing for what reason they risk their lives, but realizing full well that even when they vanquish their opponents in brawls, they will be carted off to prison and that, after they have suffered the most extreme tortures, they will be killed. ... Neither human nor divine affairs matter to them compared to winning these fights. When some impious act is committed by one of them against God, or when the laws and the state are injured by their comrades or opponents, or perhaps when they lack the necessities of life, or their country is suffering dire need, they ignore all this as long as events turn out well for their own \"faction.\" For this is what they call the bands of rioters. ... And this is how things are among the people of every city.\" (Procopius)\n\nBlues vs Greens to me are emblematic of the human tendency to fom divisions, for the sake of forming divisions. One of the themes of TBOTLS and TBOTSS is, I think, the problem of achieving good governance in the face of this tendency. The inhumi are an externalization and a mirror of divisiveness, which makes them stronger & will lead to the extinction of humans on the whorls, unless a solution is found.\n\nNo idea whether Wolfe intended this kind of imagery or parallel, but it's nice to think about. Taking it a little further, apart from Blues and Greens, all through this period the chariot teams included Red and White. In a way which does not seem all together clear, White was a junior partner to Blue, and Red to Green. In the extension beyond teams to fan factions, Red and White therefore did not make an appearance as separate divisions. \n\nBut it's perhaps possible to see a reflection in Wolfe - White is the color of the Long Sun Whorl (it is described as \"white\" when viewd from Blue at some point), and Red is of course Urth. The pairing of Green/Urth and Whorl/Blue make some kind of sense to me: each of the former pair in desperate straits, each of the latter just needing some hard work to set right.\n\nFinally: did Wolfe have a story years ago about an Army experiment gone wrong - a group of men isolated for a long period, splitting into two parties (Blue & Green?) and fighing each othee to the death? \n\n- AB" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-18T10:51:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: Andrew Bollen" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blues vs Greens to me are emblematic of the human tendency to fom\ndivisions,\nfor the sake of forming divisions. One of the themes of TBOTLS and TBOTSS\nis,\nI think, the problem of achieving good governance in the face of this\ntendency.\nThe inhumi are an externalization and a mirror of divisiveness, which\nmakes\nthem stronger & will lead to the extinction of humans on the whorls,\nunless a\nsolution is found." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting post indeed.\n\nOne point, which does not exactly contradict what you say, but supplements\nit; Wolfe is strongly pro \"divisions\" in humanity. He is distinctly\nanti-Universalist.\n\nThat this is one of the fundamental messages of the books.\n\nIn TBOTNS his pattern for a Universalist society are the Asciians, where\ncommunism and socialism have indeed removed all human racial and class\n\"divisions\".\n\nThe Commonwealth, contrasted to this, is apparently divided and weak, but in\nfact alive and strong, because it consists of organic tribal and racial\ncommunities, not an anomymous mass of cannon fodder.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at cybercityhk.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T10:58:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One point, which does not exactly contradict what you say, but supplements\nit; Wolfe is strongly pro \"divisions\" in humanity. He is distinctly\nanti-Universalist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, of course. I mean \"factions\", subgroups warring for no reason\nother than factionality, rather than substantive \"divisions\" such as, say,\nGood vs Bad. Wolfe sure ain't Ghandi!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-18T13:26:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Andrew Bollen wrote:\nBlue and Green whorls had me thinking of Blue & Green factions in the\nRoman & Byzantine worlds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. How is it I've never heard of this? What years would this be?\nExtremely fascinating!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally: did Wolfe have a story years ago about an Army experiment\ngone wrong - a group of men isolated for a long period, splitting into\ntwo parties (Blue & Green?) and fighing each othee to the death?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're thinking of \"When I Was Ming the Merciless.\" I believe that in the\nstory there were four colors--Yellow, Blue, Green, and Red--and that the\ncolor divisions were an original part of the experiment. \"Ming\" was, I\nthink, part of the Yellow group.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-18T13:50:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Andrew Bollen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blue and Green whorls had me thinking of Blue & Green factions in the\nRoman & Byzantine worlds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given Wolfe's research into Byzantium for the Severian Quintet, surely he \nknew all about this. Thus, you may well be onto something. OTOH, planet \nwith vegetation and water on them will look either bluish or greenish from \nspace, and one would think that is the primary source of the terminology.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at cybercityhk.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T14:54:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Straight\" \nWow. How is it I've never heard of this? What years would this be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The team colors went back as early as anyone discover in Roman\n(pre-Imperial) history. The factions became an important factor (so to\nspeak) around the 5th century, and continued to be a problem for several\nhundred years. The most notorious incident involving the factions was the\nNika Riot in Justinian's reign - a general pillaging of Constantinople, many\ndeaths. This is a link to a (probably) verbatim transcript of a dispute\nbetween representatives of the Greens & Blues before Justinian in the circus\n(or theater?), possibly at the commencement of the riots, tho others say it\nshould be dated earlier.\n\nhttp://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/theophanes-chron1.html\n\nIMO it's one of the most bizarre historical documents out there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're thinking of \"When I Was Ming the Merciless.\" I believe that in the\nstory there were four colors--Yellow, Blue, Green, and Red--and that the\ncolor divisions were an original part of the experiment. \"Ming\" was, I\nthink, part of the Yellow group.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T16:02:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew (Welcome!) Bollen wrote:\nBlue and Green whorls had me thinking of Blue & Green factions in\nthe Roman & Byzantine worlds...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(etc.)\n\nOmigod. It's the Drazi.\n\n\"Green!\"\n\"Purple!\"\n\"Green!\"\n\"Purple!\"\n\n(H'mmmm... \"Truth is a three-edged sword\" sounds very \nLupine, doesn't it?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T16:20:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blues vs Greens", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome aboard, Andrew Bollen.\n\nOn the topic of Blue and Green factions . . .\n\nAbout ten or twelve years ago I asked Gene Wolfe whether there were\nBlue/Green style factions in Nessus, in the armiger quarters to the north.\nI asked this because as Severian walked up that way he saw people wearing\nsilks, and the colors were red and yellow, iirc. This was a sudden riot of\ncolor. The bringing up of silk had as much connection to Byzantium as the\nsuggestion of color factions.\n\nIn response, Gene Wolfe told me that no, they were not factions; and he did\nnot have an opinion as to whether the autarch's government had a monopoly\non silk or not.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n36 Lexicons left until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] } ] }