{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3168", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3168, "subject": "Beastly", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-04-18T10:20:47+00:00", "last": "2002-04-18T18:01:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-18T10:20:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Beastly", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria wrote (of 5HC):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry, also notice that it is a whorehouse, the opposite of the church\n(Bride of Christ) in the\nBook of Revelation (The Great Harlot). Thus, 666. Also, the place is\nguarded by Cerberus\nwho guards the gates of hell.\n(Anyway, the abode of the antichrist is hell until he appears on earth,\nwhen \"they want us.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't think of anything in this very secular SF story about family and\nself that would benefit from having Number Five turn out to be the\nanti-Christ.\n\nThe number 666 is the only explicit link to Revelation, and no one calls it\nthe Number of the Anti-Christ. We call it the Number of the Beast. The\nBeast, like Cerberus, is many-headed, and that, I think, is the only\nconnection we are supposed to make: that Number Five and his family are a\nsingle, many-headed monster.\n\nThe evidence that we're supposed to read anything more into this is pretty\ntenuous. Cerberus guards the entrance to the underworld of Greek mythology,\nnot the Christian hell. Given that classical Greek culture is explicitly\nname-checked in at least two other places in the story, this just doesn't\nfeel like a Christian signifier.\n\nAnd does a whorehouse automatically have to be the bride of the anti-Christ?\nCan't it just be a whorehouse? There are more than a few prostitues and\nhouses of ill repute in Wolfe's fiction, bless him. If the Maison du Chien\nhad formerly been a church, like the brothel in the Long Sun book, fair\nenough." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-18T14:03:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Beastly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:20 AM 4/18/2002, you wrote:\nNutria wrote (of 5HC):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry, also notice that it is a whorehouse, the opposite of the church\n(Bride of Christ) in the\nBook of Revelation (The Great Harlot). Thus, 666. Also, the place is\nguarded by Cerberus\nwho guards the gates of hell.\n(Anyway, the abode of the antichrist is hell until he appears on earth,\nwhen \"they want us.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't think of anything in this very secular SF story about family and\nself that would benefit from having Number Five turn out to be the\nanti-Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " You may be right, but all of Wolfe's stuff \"looks\" \"very secular.\" \nThe religious/theological stuff is almost always sub rosa. The \"benefit\" \nwould only be another overlay of meaning on the story, one that darkens it \neven more than it already is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The number 666 is the only explicit link to Revelation, and no one calls it\nthe Number of the Anti-Christ. We call it the Number of the Beast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " True, but in common Christian theology the Beast is the \nAntichrist. (This is not my view, but it is the common view.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The Beast, like Cerberus, is many-headed, and that, I think, is the only\nconnection we are supposed to make: that Number Five and his family are a\nsingle, many-headed monster." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Good point, but commonly this is also antichrist. But if you want \nto say \"not Antichrist but Beast,\" the thematic element remains, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The evidence that we're supposed to read anything more into this is pretty\ntenuous. Cerberus guards the entrance to the underworld of Greek mythology,\nnot the Christian hell. Given that classical Greek culture is explicitly\nname-checked in at least two other places in the story, this just doesn't\nfeel like a Christian signifier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It does if you're read Dante, where the imagery is conflated. \nCerberus appears in Inferno Canto 6. Wolfe is always conflating the two. \nSeverian is both Christ-like and Apollo-like, and this in fact comes from \nthe very earliest Christian imagery in the catacombs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And does a whorehouse automatically have to be the bride of the anti-Christ?\nCan't it just be a whorehouse? There are more than a few prostitues and\nhouses of ill repute in Wolfe's fiction, bless him. If the Maison du Chien\nhad formerly been a church, like the brothel in the Long Sun book, fair\nenough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Of course a whorehouse can be just that. But given its address, \nand what I see as other thematic signifiers, the one at 666 RdS is more \nthan that. And you point out the parallel in the Long Sun. Wolfe uses this \na lot. Consider that the Italian restaurant in *There Are Doors* represents \nthe Catholic Church. It is very unLupine, IMO, for a whorehouse to be \nnothing but a whorehouse. And you point out the Beast as 666. Well, in Rev. \n17 the Beast rides the back of the Harlot. They are clearly associated in \nChristian thought.\n Wolfe is just using this \"zone of imagery\" to provide another dark \ndepth to the narrative.\n But we may have to agree to disagree about this.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T18:01:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Beastly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Tony Ellis wrote:\nNutria wrote (of 5HC):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry, also notice that it is a whorehouse, the opposite of the church\n(Bride of Christ) in the\nBook of Revelation (The Great Harlot). Thus, 666. Also, the place is\nguarded by Cerberus\nwho guards the gates of hell.\n(Anyway, the abode of the antichrist is hell until he appears on earth," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------\nThis message has been truncated, as it exceeded the maximum size\nof 0k as specified by the system administrator.\nThe sender of this message has been notified of the problem.\n----------------------------------------------------------------" } ] } ] }