{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3169", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3169, "subject": "Scylla & Oreb", "messages": 14, "voices": 8, "first": "2002-04-18T14:28:57+00:00", "last": "2002-04-22T15:37:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at cybercityhk.com" }, "date": "2002-04-18T14:28:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forgive a newbie for rehashing old hash, but the archives are a bit chaotic on Scylla & Oreb. Is this a plausible reading:\n\nScylla possesses Oreb at the very beginning of NTLS, just as Silk is about sacrifice him (her?):\n\n' \"No, no,\" the night chough muttered, as it had in the market. And then, \"Please, no.\" ... A last strangled half-human cry echoed ... and the wretched night chough went limp ...'\n\nI think the possession happens between the (animal) \"No, no\", and the (downloaded Scylla) \"Please, no.\" A small shift in the voice (\"please\" is *almost* multi-syllabic) marks an important transition in the story - a deft, Wolfean touch.\n\nStuffing Scylla into the Oreb's tiny brain brings the bird down. We know that the Window in the Manteion is semi-functional (Kypris mentions this to Silk at Orchid's), and that possession can take place without a visual manifestation.\n\nWhy does Scylla download herself into such a poor vessel - a bird about to be sacrificed? Because she was in extremis, pursued by Pas, with no other choice (but then why not into one of the humans present? Dunno!).\n\nOreb recovers in Silk's absence. Some part of Scylla's fear (she is a terrified, pursued child, after all) causes Oreb to hide on top of cupboard, where Silk discovers him/her. Henceforward the bird, previously a terrified animal, becomes a companion with a personality - childlike in many ways.\n\nWhy does the repellant Scylla become likeable within Oreb? Because she is with Silk, who of course \"brings out the best\" in many repellant characters - Auk, Hyacinth, Pig etc - at least while he is with them. Horn's judgements of Scylla (perhaps she would grow out of it) and Oreb (a nasty, mangy creature) at the very end of the tale are germane. \n\nThe Scylla who possesses Chenille is a different proposition. I interpret this Scylla as a \"backup\" personality, cached before Pas' resurgence, and therefore unchastened and \"un-Silked\", seeking to return now to Mainfram to \"reintegrate\". Or do I have I crocked this up completely?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-04-18T18:37:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew asked:\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------\nThis message has been truncated, as it exceeded the maximum size\nof 0k as specified by the system administrator.\nThe sender of this message has been notified of the problem.\n----------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-04-19T09:11:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)\n\nAndrew asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Forgive a newbie for rehashing old hash, but the archives are a bit\nchaotic on Scylla & Oreb. Is this a plausible reading:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scylla possesses Oreb at the very beginning of NTLS, just as Silk is about\nsacrifice him (her?):<<\n\nScylla possessed Oreb when Silkhorn sacrificed at the Grand Manteion, just\nbefore being captured by Hari Mau (RTTW, 356). That is why Oreb disappeared\nfor almost a year after Silkhorn was brought to Gaon--Scylla was looking for\na glass so she could be uploaded again, lest she be trapped in Oreb.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Phoebe Davis", "address": "meezer_gal at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-19T16:17:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Warning - Another newbie to the list! I am rereading the Severian, LS, and SS books for the first time since their publication. I started reading Wolfe when Shadow came out in mass market. I owned aOreb has long intrigued me. I'm about to finish Exodus and I remembered from my first reading just how much I wanted to know what a night chough looked like. Nigel might be familar with them. ApolgiPhoebe \n \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote: (Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)\n\nAndrew asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Forgive a newbie for rehashing old hash, but the archives are a bit\nchaotic on Scylla & Oreb. Is this a plausible reading:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scylla possesses Oreb at the very beginning of NTLS, just as Silk is about\nsacrifice him (her?):<<\n\nScylla possessed Oreb when Silkhorn sacrificed at the Grand Manteion, just\nbefore being captured by Hari Mau (RTTW, 356). That is why Oreb disappeared\nfor almost a year after Silkhorn was brought to Gaon--Scylla was looking for\na glass so she could be uploaded again, lest she be trapped in Oreb.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Phoebe Davis", "address": "meezer_gal at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-19T16:20:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I tried to put in too much info - this is pretty garbled. Here's what I said about Oreb after cutting out more words. I hope it works this time. Apologies all round. I'm about to finish Exodus andt much in common btw Syclla and Arthur but there it is. \n Phoebe Davis wrote: \nWarning - Another newbie to the list! I am rereading the Severian, LS, and SS books for the first time since their publication. I started reading Wolfe when Shadow&nb any author who has not managed, Oreb has long intrigued me. I'm about to finish Exodus and I remembered from my first reading just how much I wanted to know what a night chough looked like. Nigel might be fam nbsp;Syclla's possessiPhoebe \n \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote: (Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)\n\nAndrew asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Forgive a newbie for rehashing Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Phoebe Davis", "address": "meezer_gal at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-19T16:22:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Drat! Will recheck my settings and possibly try again another day.\n Phoebe Davis wrote: \nI tried to put in too much info - this is pretty garbled. Here's what I said about Oreb after cutting out more words. I hope it works this time. Apologies all round. Phoebe Davis wrote: (Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)\n\nAndrew asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Forgive a newbie for rehashing Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Phoebe Davis", "address": "meezer_gal at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-19T18:31:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My profound thanks to William Ansley who helped me set up my Yahoo\naccount properly. Here's my post - its been tested successfully. \n\nI am rereading the Severian, LS, and SS books for the first time since\ntheir publication. I started reading Wolfe when Shadow came out in mass\nmarket and went on to purchase that and all his books since, and most\nbefore, in first editions. I owned a SF & Mystery bookstore in\nRichmond, VA for 6 years (1988 - 1994) and Gene came twice to meet\nlocal fans and sign books. From my experience, Gene is a scholar and a\ngentleman. If he calls himself difficult, I think better to agree with\nan earlier posting that he does not suffer fools gladly. I took Gene\nand Rosemary out to dinner each time they visited and could not have\nasked for a better conversationalist or guests. \n\nAuthorial behavior at cons or not often seems inexplicable and can be\nconfrontational. No one would be surprised at anything Ellison did at\nthis point in his life after all. Brilliant people are not usually\neasy people. I can't imagine there is any author who has not managed,\nat the same con, to piss off one fan and delight another. \n\nOreb has long intrigued me. I'm about to finish Exodus and I\nremembered from my first reading just how much I wanted to know what a\nnight chough looked like. Nigel (and other brits on this list) might be\nfamilar with them. Apologies if this has been covered, but last night\nI went searching for choughs and found more than I bargained for. This\nis the best picture I found\nhttp://www.fishing-in-wales.com/wildlife/birds/chough.htm. They are in\nthe crow - or corvid -family. I discovered that the chough (pronouced\nchuff)is a protected species in Wales because the soul of King Arthur\nmigrated into a chough at his death. I don't believe that Wolfe does\nanything by accident and must be aware of that legend. I had not\npreviously considered Wolfe's book in light of the Arthurian cycle but\nthe connections are obvious. Fisher King/Sleeping King - Severian,\nSyclla's possession of Oreb - migration of the soul into a chough. I'm\nsure you all will think of many more - or shoot this down of course. \nCan't say I see that much in common btw Syclla and Arthur but there it\nis. \n\nPhoebe\n\n(Hi David!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n(Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)\n\nAndrew asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Forgive a newbie for rehashing old hash, but the archives are a bit\nchaotic on Scylla & Oreb. Is this a plausible reading:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Scylla possesses Oreb at the very beginning of NTLS, just as Silk is\nabout\nsacrifice him (her?):<<\n\nScylla possessed Oreb when Silkhorn sacrificed at the Grand Manteion,\njust\nbefore being captured by Hari Mau (RTTW, 356). That is why Oreb\ndisappeared\nfor almost a year after Silkhorn was brought to Gaon--Scylla was\nlooking for\na glass so she could be uploaded again, lest she be trapped in Oreb.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-19T19:06:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Phoebe Davis\" \nhttp://www.fishing-in-wales.com/wildlife/birds/chough.htm. They are in\nthe crow - or corvid -family. I discovered that the chough (pronouced\nchuff)is a protected species in Wales because the soul of King Arthur\nmigrated into a chough at his death. I don't believe that Wolfe does\nanything by accident and must be aware of that legend." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The transmigration of the soul is a familiar theme in Celtic legend,\ncertainly.\n\nI did note that te one element of the Briah cycle which does *not* fit in\nwith neo-Catholic ideas is the frequent transfer of human identity.\n\nIn the Bible there is the \"possession\" of humans by indwelling demons or\nangelic forces, but the idea that a human soul could shift from body to body\nis not found.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-04-19T19:29:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:06 PM 4/19/2002, you wrote:\nI did note that the one element of the Briah cycle which does *not* fit in\nwith neo-Catholic ideas is the frequent transfer of human identity.\n\nIn the Bible there is the \"possession\" of humans by indwelling demons or\nangelic forces, but the idea that a human soul could shift from body to body\nis not found.\n\n hartshorn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite true, literally. But \"mystically\" the Communion unites believers not \nonly with Christ but with one another, and even with the saints in heaven. \nWolfe simply makes the \"symbolic\" into the \"literal\" in the Briah books. \nSeverian literally drowns and comes back to life in his baptisms. People \nliterally eat each other and participate in each other's memories. Wolfe is \n\"getting at\" Christian notions, but is doing so by making them \"literal.\"\n And also, I suppose it depends on how much of a traditional \ntranssubstantionist Wolfe is. Traditional RC theology is fairly \n\"literalistic\" in its view of Communion: the outward \"accidents\" remain \nbread and wine, but the inward \"substance\" is \"really\" (in the \nphilosophical sense) the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ extended \nthrough space \"into\" the bread and wine. If Wolfe is traditionalistic on \nthis point, then his use cannibalism and of identity transfer in the Briah \nbooks is even closer to his brand of Christianity than it would be to, say, \nmine, or to many modern Catholic theologians.\n Anyway, all this stuff in the Briah books is metaphorical for \nsymbolic (in some senses) Christian notions, not a nod toward literal Hindu \nones.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-04-19T20:58:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andy Robertson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did note that te one element of the Briah cycle which does *not* fit in\nwith neo-Catholic ideas is the frequent transfer of human identity.\n\nIn the Bible there is the \"possession\" of humans by indwelling demons or\nangelic forces, but the idea that a human soul could shift from body to body\nis not found." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt 16:13-17 seem to address the issue. It appears that Jews of the\ntime believed in some sort of soul-type transmigration, or something\npretty darn weird. And apparently Jesus does, too, as he praises\nSimon for getting it right, since doing so requires some sort\nof divine assistance. So it looks like the idea of the same soulish\nthing moving from one incarnation to another is not anti - or even\nextra-Biblical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " hartshorn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-04-20T07:13:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"tom\" \n\nAndy Robertson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I did note that te one element of the Briah cycle which does *not* fit\nin\nwith neo-Catholic ideas is the frequent transfer of human identity.\n\nIn the Bible there is the \"possession\" of humans by indwelling demons\nor\nangelic forces, but the idea that a human soul could shift from body to\nbody\nis not found." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt 16:13-17 seem to address the issue. It appears that Jews of the\ntime believed in some sort of soul-type transmigration, or something\npretty darn weird. And apparently Jesus does, too, as he praises\nSimon for getting it right, since doing so requires some sort\nof divine assistance. So it looks like the idea of the same soulish\nthing moving from one incarnation to another is not anti - or even\nextra-Biblical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a Pharisees vs. Saducees question, a big Jewish division in the\nfirst century which had a major effect on forming Christianity's doctrines.\nBriefly, the Pharisees, the sort of reform Jewish party, had been picking up\nideas from the East (the reason that Matthew puts the Persian Magi--wise men\nor magicians--into his fantasy of the Conciliator's birth) and also the\nWest, the grain cults of Isis-Osiris and Demeter-Persephone (and you could\nadd Naomi-Ruth if you want to annoy people, as I often do). These had much\nto do with life after death, and (I gather) there was at the time some\nquestion as to whether this would be sequential (a la Hindu) or permanent.\nThe conservative Saducee party together with every orthodox (small o) Jewish\nparty for the last two millennia has rejected both speculations. Jesus, a\nsort of New Ager of the time, does seem to lean along Pharisee lines\nespecially in this passage. But you have to consider Matthew's own outlook.\nHe is frequently lumped with Mark and Luke, but I think he is very much his\nown man, a real wild man with regard to eschatology, and certainly a\nPharisee with an ax to grind.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-22T07:41:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19/04/2002 19:31:54 Phoebe Davis wrote:\nhttp://www.fishing-in-wales.com/wildlife/birds/chough.htm. They are in\nthe crow - or corvid -family. I discovered that the chough (pronouced\nchuff)is a protected species in Wales because the soul of King Arthur\nmigrated into a chough at his death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We may hang on to our traditions with unwonted tenacity and excessive\nsentiment upon occasion but the real reason the Chough is a protected\nspecies is 'cause there ain't that many of 'em left. ;-)\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Phoebe Davis", "address": "meezer_gal at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-22T15:30:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The statement seems to imply that Choughs were protected before a drop in population was\nnoted - which would certainly be delightful if true. Certainly more romantic than\npractical as you suggest. Although I can think of one instance of a non threatened\nspecies being protected for religious reasons... not that I want to trample on anyone's\nsacred cows of course. \n\nPhoebe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\n\n\n\nOn 19/04/2002 19:31:54 Phoebe Davis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.fishing-in-wales.com/wildlife/birds/chough.htm. They are in\nthe crow - or corvid -family. I discovered that the chough (pronouced\nchuff)is a protected species in Wales because the soul of King Arthur\nmigrated into a chough at his death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We may hang on to our traditions with unwonted tenacity and excessive\nsentiment upon occasion but the real reason the Chough is a protected\nspecies is 'cause there ain't that many of 'em left. ;-)\n\nMatthew\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-22T15:37:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Scylla & Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 22/04/2002 16:30:32 Phoebe Davis wrote:\nnot that I want to trample on\nanyone's sacred cows of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No risk. All the cows here being mad. ;-)\n\n\nM" } ] } ] }