Subject: (urth) Scylla & Oreb

From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at cybercityhk.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:28:57 +0000

Forgive a newbie for rehashing old hash, but the archives are a bit chaotic on Scylla & Oreb. Is this a plausible reading:

Scylla possesses Oreb at the very beginning of NTLS, just as Silk is about sacrifice him (her?):

' "No, no," the night chough muttered, as it had in the market. And then, "Please, no." ... A last strangled half-human cry echoed ... and the wretched night chough went limp ...'

I think the possession happens between the (animal) "No, no", and the (downloaded Scylla) "Please, no." A small shift in the voice ("please" is *almost* multi-syllabic) marks an important transition in the story - a deft, Wolfean touch.

Stuffing Scylla into the Oreb's tiny brain brings the bird down. We know that the Window in the Manteion is semi-functional (Kypris mentions this to Silk at Orchid's), and that possession can take place without a visual manifestation.

Why does Scylla download herself into such a poor vessel - a bird about to be sacrificed? Because she was in extremis, pursued by Pas, with no other choice (but then why not into one of the humans present? Dunno!).

Oreb recovers in Silk's absence. Some part of Scylla's fear (she is a terrified, pursued child, after all) causes Oreb to hide on top of cupboard, where Silk discovers him/her. Henceforward the bird, previously a terrified animal, becomes a companion with a personality - childlike in many ways.

Why does the repellant Scylla become likeable within Oreb? Because she is with Silk, who of course "brings out the best" in many repellant characters - Auk, Hyacinth, Pig etc - at least while he is with them. Horn's judgements of  Scylla (perhaps she would grow out of it) and Oreb (a nasty, mangy creature) at the very end of the tale are germane. 

The Scylla who possesses Chenille is a different proposition. I interpret this Scylla as a "backup" personality, cached before Pas' resurgence, and therefore unchastened and "un-Silked", seeking to return now to Mainfram to "reintegrate". Or do I have I crocked this up completely?

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:37:22 +0000

Andrew asked:

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:11:01 +0000

(Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)

Andrew asked:

>>Forgive a newbie for rehashing old hash, but the archives are a bit
chaotic on Scylla & Oreb. Is this a plausible reading:

Scylla possesses Oreb at the very beginning of NTLS, just as Silk is about
sacrifice him (her?):<<

Scylla possessed Oreb when Silkhorn sacrificed at the Grand Manteion, just
before being captured by Hari Mau (RTTW, 356). That is why Oreb disappeared
for almost a year after Silkhorn was brought to Gaon--Scylla was looking for
a glass so she could be uploaded again, lest she be trapped in Oreb.

-Roy

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From: Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:17:51 +0000

Warning - Another newbie to the list!  I am rereading the Severian, LS, and SS books for the first time since their publication. I started reading Wolfe when Shadow came out in mass market.  I owned aOreb has long intrigued me.  I'm about to finish Exodus and I remembered from my first reading just how much I wanted to know what a night chough looked like. Nigel might be familar with them.  ApolgiPhoebe 
  "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: (Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)

-Roy

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From: Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:20:54 +0000

I tried to put in too much info - this is pretty garbled.  Here's what I said about Oreb after cutting out more words.  I hope it works this time.  Apologies all round. I'm about to finish Exodus andt much in common btw Syclla and Arthur but there it is. 
  Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal at yahoo.com> wrote: 
Warning - Another newbie to the list!  I am rereading the Severian, LS, and SS books for the first time since their publication. I started reading Wolfe when Shadow&nb any author who has not managed, Oreb has long intrigued me.  I'm about to finish Exodus and I remembered from my first reading just how much I wanted to know what a night chough looked like. Nigel might be fam nbsp;Syclla's possessiPhoebe 
  "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: (Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)

Andrew asked:

>>Forgive a newbie for rehashing Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

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From: Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:22:55 +0000

Drat!  Will recheck my settings and possibly try again another day.
  Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal at yahoo.com> wrote: 
I tried to put in too much info - this is pretty garbled.  Here's what I said about Oreb after cutting out more words.  I hope it works this time.  Apologies all round.   Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal@yahoWarning - Another newbie to the list!  I am rereading the Severian, LS, and SS books for the first time since their publication. I started reading Wolfe when Shadow&am 
Oreb has long intrigued me.  I'm about to finish Exodus and I remembered from my first reading just how much I wanted to know what a night chough looked like. Nigel might be fam 
Phoebe 
  "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: (Reposted from yesterday's urth list glitch)

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From: Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:31:54 +0000

My profound thanks to William Ansley who helped me set up my Yahoo
account properly.  Here's my post - its been tested successfully.  

I am rereading the Severian, LS, and SS books for the first time since
their publication. I started reading Wolfe when Shadow came out in mass
market and went on to purchase that and all his books since, and most
before, in first editions.  I owned a SF & Mystery bookstore in
Richmond, VA for 6 years (1988 - 1994) and Gene came twice to meet
local fans and sign books.  From my experience, Gene is a scholar and a
gentleman.  If he calls himself difficult, I think better to agree with
an earlier posting that he does not suffer fools gladly.  I took Gene
and Rosemary out to dinner each time they visited and could not have
asked for a better conversationalist or guests.  

Authorial behavior at cons or not often seems inexplicable and can be
confrontational.  No one would be surprised at anything Ellison did at
this point in his life after all.  Brilliant people are not usually
easy people.  I can't imagine there is any author who has not managed,
at the same con, to piss off one fan and delight another. 

Oreb has long intrigued me.  I'm about to finish Exodus and I
remembered from my first reading just how much I wanted to know what a
night chough looked like. Nigel (and other brits on this list) might be
familar with them.  Apologies if this has been covered, but last night
I went searching for choughs and found more than I bargained for.  This
is the best picture I found
http://www.fishing-in-wales.com/wildlife/birds/chough.htm.  They are in
the crow - or corvid -family.  I discovered that the chough (pronouced
chuff)is a protected species in Wales because the soul of King Arthur
migrated into a chough at his death.  I don't believe that Wolfe does
anything by accident and must be aware of that legend.  I had not
previously considered Wolfe's book in light of the Arthurian cycle but
the connections are obvious. Fisher King/Sleeping King -  Severian,
Syclla's possession of Oreb - migration of the soul into a chough.  I'm
sure you all will think of many more - or shoot this down of course. 
Can't say I see that much in common btw Syclla and Arthur but there it
is. 

Phoebe

(Hi David!)

> a glass so she could be uploaded again, lest she be trapped in Oreb.

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 19:06:59 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phoebe Davis" <meezer_gal at yahoo.com>
> anything by accident and must be aware of that legend.

The transmigration of the soul is a familiar theme in Celtic legend,
certainly.

I did note that te one element of the  Briah cycle which does *not* fit in
with neo-Catholic ideas is the frequent transfer of human identity.

In the Bible there is the  "possession" of humans by indwelling demons or
angelic forces, but the idea that a human soul could shift from body to body
is not found.

    hartshorn

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 19:29:44 +0000

At 02:06 PM 4/19/2002, you wrote:

>I did note that the one element of the  Briah cycle which does *not* fit in

Quite true, literally. But "mystically" the Communion unites believers not 
only with Christ but with one another, and even with the saints in heaven. 
Wolfe simply makes the "symbolic" into the "literal" in the Briah books. 
Severian literally drowns and comes back to life in his baptisms. People 
literally eat each other and participate in each other's memories. Wolfe is 
"getting at" Christian notions, but is doing so by making them "literal."
         And also, I suppose it depends on how much of a traditional 
transsubstantionist Wolfe is. Traditional RC theology is fairly 
"literalistic" in its view of Communion: the outward "accidents" remain 
bread and wine, but the inward "substance" is "really" (in the 
philosophical sense) the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ extended 
through space "into" the bread and wine. If Wolfe is traditionalistic on 
this point, then his use cannibalism and of identity transfer in the Briah 
books is even closer to his brand of Christianity than it would be to, say, 
mine, or to many modern Catholic theologians.
         Anyway, all this stuff in the Briah books is metaphorical for 
symbolic (in some senses) Christian notions, not a nod toward literal Hindu 
ones.

Nutria

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From: tom <tom at bitterman.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:58:49 +0000

> angelic forces, but the idea that a human soul could shift from body to body

Matt 16:13-17 seem to address the issue.  It appears that Jews of the
time believed in some sort of soul-type transmigration, or something
pretty darn weird.  And apparently Jesus does, too, as he praises
Simon for getting it right, since doing so requires some sort
of divine assistance.  So it looks like the idea of the same soulish
thing moving from one incarnation to another is not anti - or even
extra-Biblical.

>     hartshorn

Tom

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:13:53 +0000

From: "tom" <tom at bitterman.net>

> thing moving from one incarnation to another is not anti - or even

This is a Pharisees vs. Saducees question, a big Jewish division in the
first century which had a major effect on  forming Christianity's doctrines.
Briefly, the Pharisees, the sort of reform Jewish party, had been picking up
ideas from the East (the reason that Matthew puts the Persian Magi--wise men
or magicians--into his fantasy of the Conciliator's birth) and also the
West, the grain cults of Isis-Osiris and Demeter-Persephone (and you could
add Naomi-Ruth if you want to annoy people, as I often do). These had much
to do with life after death, and (I gather) there was at the time some
question as to whether this would be sequential (a la Hindu) or permanent.
The conservative Saducee party together with every orthodox (small o) Jewish
party for the last two millennia has rejected both speculations. Jesus, a
sort of New Ager of the time, does seem to lean along Pharisee lines
especially in this passage. But you have to consider Matthew's own outlook.
He is frequently lumped with Mark and Luke, but I think he is very much his
own man, a real wild man with regard to eschatology, and certainly a
Pharisee with an ax to grind.

-alga

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 07:41:09 +0000

On 19/04/2002 19:31:54 Phoebe Davis wrote:

>migrated into a chough at his death.

We may hang on to our traditions with unwonted tenacity and excessive
sentiment upon occasion but the real reason the Chough is a protected
species is 'cause there ain't that many of 'em left.  ;-)

Matthew

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From: Phoebe Davis <meezer_gal at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:30:32 +0000

The statement seems to imply that Choughs were protected before a drop in population was
noted - which would certainly be delightful if true.  Certainly more romantic than
practical as you suggest.  Although I can think of one instance of a non threatened
species being protected for religious reasons... not that I want to trample on anyone's
sacred cows of course.  

Phoebe

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:37:45 +0000

On 22/04/2002 16:30:32 Phoebe Davis wrote:

> not that I want to trample on
> anyone's sacred cows of course.

No risk.  All the cows here being mad.  ;-)

M

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