{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/317", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 317, "subject": "Severian and Apu-Punchau", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-01-30T13:42:11+00:00", "last": "1998-01-30T16:40:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David_Lebling", "address": "david_lebling at avid.com" }, "date": "1998-01-30T13:42:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian and Apu-Punchau", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "CRCulver writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apu-Punchau was the Severian of the first \"iteration\" of Briah, before\nthe timeline was altered. (See _Citadel_ chapter XXXVIII, paragraph\n5). I've never been adept at explaining temporal mechanics, so I hope \nyou can get all\nyou want to know out of the BotNS text itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian must be in error here, because in \"our\" timeline, near\nthe end of \"Urth of the New Sun,\" he becomes Apu-Punchau. As this\nhasn't happened to him yet when he writes _Citadel_, he doesn't realize\nthat he too will end up as Apu-Punchau.\n\nOr are you suggesting that the previous incarnation of Severian was\nApu-Punchau, version 1, and \"our\" Severian is Apu-Punchau, version 2?\n\nThis suggestion, it seems to me, rests on the idea that the first\nApu-Punchau died (for real), because Severian met his ghost in the Stone\nTown. Except, it wasn't a ghost; the Cumaean reached back through time\nto a period when Apu-Punchau was alive (or vice versa), just as Severian\nhimself reaches through time (or alternate timelines) to work his\nresurrections and healing miracles. I think Severian was meeting his\nown future self, currently living in the past.\n\nI agree wholeheartedly that following the temporal antics (much less the\ndeaths and resurrections) in the five books is difficult if not\nimpossible. I'd love to see the full accounting and a timeline with\nbranch points...\n\n -vizcacha\n (david_lebling at avid.com)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "CRCulver", "address": "crculver at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-01-30T16:40:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Severian and Apu-Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Response to Vizcacha:\n\nLet's get some terms out of the way here before I begin:\n\nSeverian1 - the Severian of the first iteration of Briah, who gained the\nPhoenix Throne but did not bring the New Sun to Earth.\n\nSeverian2 - the Severian who we know, who gained the Phoenix Throne, *with\nthe help of the Claw*, and did in fact succeed in bringing the New Sun back. \n\nTzadkiel, or whoever, saw the 'mistakes' of Severian1, and altered the\ntimeline so there would be a Severian 2 who would succeed in saving Urth,\nalthough transforming it into Ushas.\n\nApu-Punchau1 - the Apu-Punchau who Severian2 meets in the Stone Town.\nApu-Punchau1 was Severian1, but did not succeed in bringing the New Sun back,\nand for some reason (Mr. Driussi says it is entropy) is cast back in time.\n\nApu-Punchau2 - the man who Severian2 eventually becomes after the\nUrth-to-Ushas thing. He is, in my opinion, the person buried in the Citadel\nnecropolis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Severian must be in error here, because in \"our\" timeline, near the\nend of \"Urth of the New Sun,\" he becomes Apu-Punchau.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The name \"Apu-Punchau\" is so often associated with\nSeverian1/Apu-Punchau1 that confusion erupts. However, although Severian2\nbecomes Apu-Punchau2, Apu-Punchau2 and Apu-Punchau1 are not entirely in the\nsame temporal circumstances. They are two different people, i.e. Apu-Punchau1\nis *from the first iteration* and coming from the soon-Ragnarok Urth (he did\nfail), but Apu-Punchau2 is from the second iteration, and coming from Ushas,\nbecause he did \"succeed.\"\n Put simply, Severian becomes Apu-Punchau2, a man who appears much the\nsame as the Apu-Punchau of the Stone Town (Apu-Punchau1) but is not the same.\nSee below for my comments on the Stone Town." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Severian was meeting his own future self, currently living in the\npast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I disaggree. In the Stone Town, I believe Severian2 was meeting himself\nof a former iteration of Briah, Apu-Punchau1. Severian2 was NOT meeting the\nApu-Punchau which he would become, Apu-Punchau2." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian himself reaches through time (or alternate timelines) to work his\nresurrections and healing miracles.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don't really know if Severian2 does this, or the Claw does this. I am\nnot quite sure how the Claw fits into the iterations of Briah, and it will be\none of the most carefully scrutinized elements when I begin my rereading.\nHowever, I do know that, if Severian2 is correct, then Severian1 did not have\nthe Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree wholeheartedly that following the temporal antics in the five books\nis difficult if not impossible<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Excuse me whilst I get some more aspirin \n\nChristopher R. Culver \nhttp://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html\n------------------------------------------------\n\"Ignorance, that light of fools steers a wayward path\"\n-Brendan Perry" } ] } ] }