{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3180", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3180, "subject": "5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "messages": 24, "voices": 10, "first": "2002-04-19T23:26:20+00:00", "last": "2002-05-07T18:58:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-19T23:26:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'm dumb and I admit it; I hadn't remembered that the Shadow\nChildren actually _call_ themselves humans. Now I do. But are they\nreally? And if they are, _who_ are they?\n\nYou're going to think about halfway through this message that I am\nmaking another really dumb mistake. Maybe I am, but not the one you\nthink I'm making, as you'll see.\n\nThe most-relevant quotes are as follows.\n\nAce pb p. 95; the Old Wise One talking:\n\n\t\"You would say that these sing. There is the Song of \n\tMany Mouths and All Full, The Bending Sky-Paths Song \n\tthat none may come, The Hunting Song, The Song of Ancient\n\tSorrows we sing when the Fighting Lizard is high in the\n\tsummer sky and we see our old home as a little yellow \n\tgem in his tail...\n\t\t\"...when _we_ sing, it is not the air that shakes. \n\tWe shake extension, and I am the song all the Shadow \n\tchildren sing, their thought when they sing as one. Hold\n\tyour hands before you thus, not touching. Now think of\n\tyour hands gone. That is what we shake.\"\n\t\tSandwalker said, \"That is nothing.\"\n\t\t\"That which you call nothing is what holds all\n\tworlds apart. When it is gone, all the worlds will be\n\tborn.\"\n\nWell, now. That last sounds just a teeny weeny bit like the cyclical \nuniverse Wolfe talked about in Nutria's interview selection, \ndoesn't it? H'mmm ... \n\tAnyway, what I got when I was this far was that they were\ncolonists who'd been there some time, and came from a world with a\nyellow sun, and so were, in all probability, humans or human-\ndescended. \nAnyway, then on to pages 125ff; again the (or an) Old Wise\nOne to Sandwalker:\n\n\t\"Now humans - my race - actually travelled in \n\t[starcrossers], cruising among the stars before the\n\tlong dreaming days. We came here that way.\n\t\t\"... We either came recently or a long, long\n\ttime ago. I'm not sure which.\n\t\t\"... We had no songs when we came here - that\n\twas one of the reasons we stayed, and why we lost the\n\tstarcrosser.\"\n\t\t\"You coulcn't have gone back in it anyway...\"\n\t\t\"We know. We've changed too much ... we once\n\tlooked as you do now.\"\n\nIt is in this passage also that the Old Wise One informs\nSandwalker that \"You come of a race of shapechangers -- like\nthose we called werewolves in our old home.\" [127]\n\nOne more observation on why the Shadow children stayed: \"For \nthis we have given up everything, because this is more than \neverything, though it is only an herb of this world...Long\nago in our home, before a fool struck fire, we were so -- \nroaming without whatever might be named save the sun, the night,\nand each other. Now we are so again, for we are gods, and things \nmade by hands do not concern us.\" [129-31]\n\nOkay, so what's going on here?\n\nPossible explanations exfoliate: It's _fairly_ clear, though,\nthat the Shadow children are the first, French, colonists. They \ncame to Ste-Anne, and found the godleaf, which\n\na) gave them Amazing Psychic Powers[tm]\nb) are way cool hallucinogens that made them _think_ they had\n Amazing Psychic Powers.\n\nThey also \n\nx) found the abos\ny) hallucinated the abos\n\nAnnoyingly, almost any combination of these is possible, as is\nthe somewhat vaguer possibility that the Shadow children are not\nthe French at all but a much earlier round of colonists -- among\nthe names the great WOO remembers for their ancient home are \n\"Atlantis or Mu -- or Gondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme, or the\nCountry of Friends.\" \n\nThe one good thing to emerge so far is that Ste-Anne & Ste-Croix \nclearly can _not_ be Urth and Lune, thank the Increate!, because\npeople come and go between them and Earth fairly regularly without\nany apparent time travel.\n\nWell, anyway. I'm jiggy with this so far, but then I remember:\nhey, this is all something Victor/\"Marsch\" wrote, and it's not \nat all clear that we have _any_ reason to trust him. Another \npossibility occurs to me -- perhaps the abos are not shapeshifters\nat all, but humans, either the French or someone earlier, who\n-- under the influence of the godleaf -- have gone totally native,\nforgotten technology (and thus the ability to use tools is not\nphysiological but simple unfamiliarity), and generally become\n_different_ by Lamarckian evolution.\n\nThis is still more like a bunch of questions than it is like a\nmodel, but at least I think they're starting to be coherent\nquestions...\n\nPS: Are there any other Cabell references in Lupine texts...?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-20T09:17:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOkay, I'm dumb and I admit it; I hadn't remembered that the Shadow\nChildren actually _call_ themselves humans. Now I do. But are they\nreally? And if they are, _who_ are they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a question I've come back to and come back to over the years. You\ncan find a rather-too-condensed synopsis of what I understand to be the\ntruth in a post I made called '5HC: a timeline without dates', back in 2000:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0152.shtml" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possible explanations exfoliate: It's _fairly_ clear, though,\nthat the Shadow children are the first, French, colonists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They can't be. 'A Story' ends with the arrival of the French colonists.\n\nThat leaves us with two possibilities that I can see. Either the Shadow\nChildren are indigenous or, as you say there is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the somewhat vaguer possibility that the Shadow children are not\nthe French at all but a much earlier round of colonists -- among\nthe names the great WOO remembers for their ancient home are\n\"Atlantis or Mu -- or Gondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme, or the\nCountry of Friends.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the explanation we are set up to believe for most of the story.\nBut - and it's a very big but - toward the end the Old Wise One does a\ncomplete about-face, and admits that his race was already here when the\nfirst, prehistoric Earth colonists came:\n\"Now I am half a man, and know that we were always here...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another\npossibility occurs to me -- perhaps the abos are not shapeshifters" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. I've been saying this for years: the abos are -not- shapeshifters.\nThere's not a scrap of evidence to suggest that they are, and a big heap of\nevidence to suggest that they have simply been mythologised by the\ncolonists. They are gifted mimics, certainly, but not supernaturally so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "at all, but humans, either the French or someone earlier, who" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The French, no. Someone earlier, absolutely. The prehistoric humans the Old\nWise One refers to.\n\nIf I sound a little cocksure, forgive me, but as I say I've been banging on\nabout 5HC for years in this list, to the extent that I'm pretty confident\nabout this stuff. If you want me to back any of it up with solid evidence,\njust ask." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-04-20T15:26:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nThis is a question I've come back to and come back to over the years. You\ncan find a rather-too-condensed synopsis of what I understand to be the\ntruth in a post I made called '5HC: a timeline without dates', back in 2000:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0152.shtml" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I gather that Tony Ellis has no interest in including the notion that\nSainte Anne/Sainte Croix (or one or the other) constitute Eden, or the\norigin point for human beings, such that the waves of \"discoverers\" from\nEarth are in reality returning to a dimly remembered ancestral home.\n\n(Which is fine! Nobody says you must--I certainly don't say you must.)\n\nI brought it up most recently in Feb 2002:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0202/114.txt.shtml\n\nAs far as I can tell it originated with prion, Sean Whalen, in 1998:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0015/0057.shtml\n\nAnd I thought it was pretty neat at the time:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0015/0068.shtml\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n36 Lexicons left until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-21T08:58:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nI gather that Tony Ellis has no interest in including the notion that\nSainte Anne/Sainte Croix (or one or the other) constitute Eden, or the\norigin point for human beings, such that the waves of \"discoverers\" from\nEarth are in reality returning to a dimly remembered ancestral home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I can tell it originated with prion, Sean Whalen, in 1998:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And prion, very commendably, includes his own refutation of the idea. He\nsays that there are too many holes and that it requires adding too much to\nthe story, and I agree.\n\nThe dimly remembered ancestral home described in 5HC has a yellow sun and an\nEarth name. And appears, in any case, to have been telepathically lifted by\nthe Shadow Children from the minds of passing starcrosser crews. And there's\nno dim memory at all of people ever leaving St Anne - only of them arriving.\n\nIf there's any actual evidence in 5HC to back up this theory I'm genuinely\ninterested to hear it - but I can't think of any." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-22T16:21:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony Ellis responds to me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possible explanations exfoliate: It's _fairly_ clear, though,\nthat the Shadow children are the first, French, colonists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They can't be. 'A Story' ends with the arrival of the French colonists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why, yes; so it does (or seems to -- certainly, it ends with the arrival\nof _some_ colonists). But how much of 'A Story' should we take literally?\nEven the title is reversed: it isn't really \"A Story\" by John V. Marsch;\nit is a story by \"John V. Marsch.\" All in Part 2 of 5HC is shadows and/or\nreflections, and all is told by Victor for some specific purpose. Find\n(in part 3) his purpose for telling the story, and learn what to believe.\n\nAnd, no, I haven't found his purpose yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That leaves us with two possibilities that I can see. Either the Shadow\nChildren are indigenous or, as you say there is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the somewhat vaguer possibility that the Shadow children are not\nthe French at all but a much earlier round of colonists -- among\nthe names the great WOO remembers for their ancient home are\n\"Atlantis or Mu -- or Gondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme, or the\nCountry of Friends.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the explanation we are set up to believe for most of the\nstory. But - and it's a very big but - toward the end the Old Wise\nOne does a complete about-face, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... the reversal of the reflection of the Shadows ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and admits that his race was already here when the first,\nprehistoric Earth colonists came:\n\"Now I am half a man, and know that we were always here...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So why does Victor tell us this? What is -his- reason? What does\nhe hope to gain?\n\n(We don't even know whether he wrote \"A Story\" before or after \nhe was arrested!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another possibility occurs to me -- perhaps the abos are not\nshapeshifters" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. I've been saying this for years: the abos are -not- shapeshifters.\nThere's not a scrap of evidence to suggest that they are, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I must disagree. The direct evidence is the ability of Victor's\nmother to become young or old at will. \n\nActually, I suspect the truth of being more complex than that. \n\n(Complexity? In a Wolfe text? Say it ain't so!) \n\nProposal:\n\nLong ago, as in your timeline, Ste-Anne was inhabited by the \nancestors of the Shadow children: psionically gifted shapeshifters,\nless intelligent than humans as individuals but capable of producing\na group mind (the Wise Old Ones). \n\nThe early human colonists came. Their arrival was utterly traumatic\nfor the Shadow children, who chose to distort space so no _more_\ncolonists could come. \n\nThousands(?) of years pass after the arrival of the \"Free People.\"\nSome genetic(?) exchange takes place between them. The Shadow\nchildren become more intelligent and more human-like in many ways.\nThe \"Free People\" gain some limited ability to change, not their\nshape properly speaking, but their appearance.\n\nDoes this work? I think it does." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-04-22T14:14:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/22/02 11:21 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:\nAll in Part 2 of 5HC is shadows and/or\nreflections, and all is told by Victor for some specific purpose. Find\n(in part 3) his purpose for telling the story, and learn what to believe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or else Wolfe, in expanding the 5HC novella, wanted to write a story about\nthe Shadow Children, and decided to tie it in to parts 1 and 3 by having it\nbe written by \"John V. Marsch.\" (If I sound a bit cynical, forgive me.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-23T17:21:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nPossible explanations exfoliate: It's _fairly_ clear, though,\nthat the Shadow children are the first, French, colonists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They can't be. 'A Story' ends with the arrival of the French colonists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why, yes; so it does (or seems to -- certainly, it ends with the arrival\nof _some_ colonists). But how much of 'A Story' should we take literally?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally I feel all of 'A Story' should be taken literally, but that's a\nwhole debate in itself! I think there's enough material in 'V.R.T' to argue\nthat the Shadow Children can't be the French Colonists.\n\nFor one thing, the timescale is just too short. St Anne has only been\ncolonised for a couple of hundred years, and most sightings took place in\nthe first of those. I don't think we're expected to believe that French\ncolonists devolved into the gnarled, pygmy race we know as Shadow Children\nin such a short space of time.\n\nTrenchard tells Marsch that when the boats of the first starcrosser came\nashore, they found a man floating on his face, \"beaten until dead with\nscourges of little shells tied together\" - just the way 'A Story' tells it.\nWe have no reason to think he's lying. Victor, who functions throughout the\nnovella as a touchstone to the validity of his father's stories, doesn't\ndemur. It could be argued that Victor has woven this detail into an\notherwise entirely fictitious narrative, but that feels a little\nbloody-minded to me. Especially as this is not the only time that Wolfe goes\nout of his way to show that parts of 'A Story' are externally verifiable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Now I am half a man, and know that we were always here...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So why does Victor tell us this? What is -his- reason? What does\nhe hope to gain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I have never felt that Victor had any sort of hidden agenda for\nwriting 'A Story'. Making him the author always seemed to me to be simply a\nframing device, of which Wolfe is inordinately fond. Like Latro's scrolls,\nor Cutthroat's recording gadget, or making Horn the author of the Book of\nthe Long Sun. But if you want a reason, how about this:\n\nVictor is an anthropologist. Yes, he's a half-Annese impostor, but he's\nstill an anthropologist by both nature and profession. He has inherited\nMarsch's great, unfinished work on the nature of the Annese, and with the\nlore and stories passed onto him by his Annese mother he is in a unique\nposition to continue it. He also has an awful lot of spare time to fill. I\nthink 'A Story' is meant to be his informed musing about what the Annese\nwere like and where they came from, written to please himself. I also think\nwe're supposed to believe he got it right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heh. I've been saying this for years: the abos are -not- shapeshifters.\nThere's not a scrap of evidence to suggest that they are," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here I must disagree. The direct evidence is the ability of Victor's\nmother to become young or old at will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looking more or less haggard is not, by my definition, shapeshifting.\nTrenchard, who has witnessed this ability firsthand, does not even believe\nit is in any way superhuman: \"A matter of the voice, you understand, and the\nmuscles of the face.\" There's a hint that there may be more to it than that\nin the way Victor interjects \"Everything!\" at this point, and I've suggested\nbefore now that it could be partially telepathic. But it's not the\ntransformation of a human being into a \"household utensil\" as Dr Hagsmith\nputs it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-24T00:10:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another\npossibility occurs to me -- perhaps the abos are not shapeshifters" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. I've been saying this for years: the abos are -not- shapeshifters.\nThere's not a scrap of evidence to suggest that they are, and a big heap of\nevidence to suggest that they have simply been mythologised by the\ncolonists. They are gifted mimics, certainly, but not supernaturally so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tHow do you explain the remarkable similarity of form and the ability to\ninterbreed, then?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-04-24T04:11:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Stephanides\" \nTo: \nSent: Monday, April 22, 2002 10:14 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?\non 4/22/02 11:21 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All in Part 2 of 5HC is shadows and/or\nreflections, and all is told by Victor for some specific purpose. Find\n(in part 3) his purpose for telling the story, and learn what to\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or else Wolfe, in expanding the 5HC novella, wanted to write a story about\nthe Shadow Children, and decided to tie it in to parts 1 and 3 by having\nit\nbe written by \"John V. Marsch.\" (If I sound a bit cynical, forgive me.)\n\n--Adam\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-04T14:21:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/23/02 12:21 PM, Tony Ellis at LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk wrote:\nTrenchard tells Marsch that when the boats of the first starcrosser came\nashore, they found a man floating on his face, \"beaten until dead with\nscourges of little shells tied together\" - just the way 'A Story' tells it.\nWe have no reason to think he's lying. Victor, who functions throughout the\nnovella as a touchstone to the validity of his father's stories, doesn't\ndemur. It could be argued that Victor has woven this detail into an\notherwise entirely fictitious narrative, but that feels a little\nbloody-minded to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's what writers of fiction do. The Soldier series must contain\ndozens of \"externally verifiable\" details, but we don't conclude that Latro\nexisted.\n\nEven if we accept that \"A Story\" is based on Annese oral traditions, there's\nno reason to think that the events in it actually took place, let alone that\nthe OWO's stories are true. The story is a myth: a myth of the coming of\nthe French as a Fall, which also incorporates an origin myth (or several\ndifferent origin myths). Or else it's Victor's imaginative reconstruction\nof how such a myth might have run. But in either case, there's no need to\nbelieve in prehistoric starcrossers, or in Shadow Children telepathically\nshooing away spaceships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Especially as this is not the only time that Wolfe goes\nout of his way to show that parts of 'A Story' are externally verifiable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later, Tony wrote:\nBut there's nothing internal to 'A Story' to suggest that it is unreliable" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's the title itself: a person writing what they believed to be a\nfactual account of the arrival of the French colonists would be unlikely to\ntitle it just \"A Story.\" And there are the implausibilities I mentioned\nabove.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-04T21:17:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nBut that's what writers of fiction do. The Soldier series must contain\ndozens of \"externally verifiable\" details, but we don't conclude that Latro\nexisted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not the same thing. When Wolfe weaves the siege of Sestos into\nSoldier of the Mist, he's using a real historical fact. When Victor weaves\nthe pit seen in 'V.R.T.' into 'A Story', that's Wolfe using a 'fact' in one\nstory that he has himself created in another story.\n\nInstead of the Soldier series, consider the Long Sun books. We don't believe\nSilk exists any more than we do Latro, but we accept that, within the\ncontext of that fictional world, Horn is writing an account of a real\nperson. I see 'A Story' in the same light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But in either case, there's no need to\nbelieve in prehistoric starcrossers, or in Shadow Children telepathically\nshooing away spaceships." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's no need for Wolfe to have made the Croix\\Anne system remain\nunknown \"when planets more distant from Earth had been colonized for\n decades\" either. Having the system so mysteriously overlooked doesn't\ncontribute anything important to 'V.R.T.' (that I can think of). But it is\nanother way of indicating that the events portrayed in 'A Story' really\nhappened.\n\nAs for prehistoric starcrossers: if they don't exist we either have to\neither find another way for human beings to have got to St Anne and become\nthe abos, or we have to say that abos are truly indigenous and therefore can\n't breed with the settlers. It is just about possible to say the latter, but\nto my mind it's a reading that greatly weakens the impact of the story.\nPlus, having Victor a half-breed also explains why he doesn't seem to be\n100% as hamfisted as an abo should be. And why he isn't as good at mimicry\nas his mother.\n\nThe other thing about the prehistoric colonisation idea is that it gets\nraised in all three novellas. That makes me feel it's an idea we're supposed\nto consider seriously." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-04T21:24:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" \nThe other thing about the prehistoric colonisation idea is that it gets\nraised in all three novellas. That makes me feel it's an idea we're\nsupposed\nto consider seriously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suggest that T5HOC is a book with a lot to say about Colonialism and its\naftermath. The Abos have to be there because they are Wolfe's major\ntheme. They have to be near-identical with the colonists so that the minor\ntheme of identity and subversion can be invoked. ((Their \"white\" phenotype\nand such minor consequences of that as the \"pink\" sun follow.))\n\nI suggest that Wolfe was driven by this and threw in the stuff about\nprehistoric Starcrossers as persiflage and tergiverseration. There is\nactually no solution, he wanted it left a mystery.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Phoebe Davis", "address": "meezer_gal at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-04T23:02:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have just reread (since their publication mind you) 12 books by Wolfe - from Shadow of\nthe Torturer through the final SS. It was overdue and entirely enjoyable, but I find\nthat simple reality is no longer quite sufficient for me. Be that as it may, I am in awe\nthat this gentleman, Tony Ellis, used a word that I had to look up. Thank you for\ntergiverseration. \n\nI will point out that in my years in book selling (let me seize this opportunity to\nremind the list that I not only had my own SF & Mystery bookstore for 6 years, but toiled\nas well for B. Dalton for 8 long years before that) the single most common complaint by\nthe masses, the great unwashed, the un/non/anti-literati as it were, about Wolfe is that\n\"he uses words I don't understand\". It is Wolfe's very use and choice of words -\nobscure, obfuscatory, adumbrate they may be -- that attracts me to his work. \n\nBravo! \n\nI am currently reading 5HoC - it seems I have not read this before despite having a\nsigned first (typed in a gloating manner I'm ashamed to admit) in order to try to keep up\nwith this list. Perhaps I will have a comment later, perhaps not, but the posts have been\nfascinating. \n\nPhoebe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Tony Ellis\" \nThe other thing about the prehistoric colonisation idea is that it gets\nraised in all three novellas. That makes me feel it's an idea we're\nsupposed\nto consider seriously.\n\nI suggest that T5HOC is a book with a lot to say about Colonialism and its\naftermath. The Abos have to be there because they are Wolfe's major\ntheme. They have to be near-identical with the colonists so that the minor\ntheme of identity and subversion can be invoked. ((Their \"white\" phenotype\nand such minor consequences of that as the \"pink\" sun follow.))\n\nI suggest that Wolfe was driven by this and threw in the stuff about\nprehistoric Starcrossers as persiflage and tergiverseration. There is\nactually no solution, he wanted it left a mystery.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-05T14:12:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/4/02 4:17 PM, Tony Ellis at LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk wrote:\nAdam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But that's what writers of fiction do. The Soldier series must contain\ndozens of \"externally verifiable\" details, but we don't conclude that Latro\nexisted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not the same thing. When Wolfe weaves the siege of Sestos into\nSoldier of the Mist, he's using a real historical fact. When Victor weaves\nthe pit seen in 'V.R.T.' into 'A Story', that's Wolfe using a 'fact' in one\nstory that he has himself created in another story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBut what Victor is doing within the world of 5HC is analogous to what Wolfe\ndid in Soldier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Instead of the Soldier series, consider the Long Sun books. We don't believe\nSilk exists any more than we do Latro, but we accept that, within the\ncontext of that fictional world, Horn is writing an account of a real\nperson. I see 'A Story' in the same light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is nothing to suggest that Silk is a fictional character invented by\nHorn, and such a reading would contribute nothing to the interpretation of\nthe Long Sun books: all we would be able to say is that a person about whom\nwe know nothing wrote a novel for some reason. Neither of these is true for\n\"A Story.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But in either case, there's no need to\nbelieve in prehistoric starcrossers, or in Shadow Children telepathically\nshooing away spaceships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, there's no need for Wolfe to have made the Croix\\Anne system remain\nunknown \"when planets more distant from Earth had been colonized for\ndecades\" either. Having the system so mysteriously overlooked doesn't\ncontribute anything important to 'V.R.T.' (that I can think of)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not so mysterious. Exploration need not have proceeded in neat\nconcentric spheres. Croix/Anne might have been ignored because distant\nobservation made it seem an undesirable spot for colonization. (Mantis,\niirc, suggested that the pink sun and longer year could indicate that the\ntwin planets were on the edge of the life-supporting zone.)\n\nAnd the overlooking reinforces the picture of Croix/Anne as a backwater\ncolony, which adds to the book's political dimension and helps to explain\nNumber Five's father's frustration and Victor's interrogator's inferiority\ncomplex and over-compensatory bluster vis-a-vis Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other thing about the prehistoric colonisation idea is that it gets\nraised in all three novellas. That makes me feel it's an idea we're supposed\nto consider seriously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note, though, that the OWO's list begins with two \"homelands\" which are at\nleast literarily plausible, and proceeds to three which aren't: either too\nold, too known, or fictional (and then we have the enigmatic Country of\nFriends). It seems to me that the list is in this order to undercut the\nidea of prehistoric colonization: \"Yeah, the Annese came from Atlantis--or\nwas it Never-Never Land?\"\n\nI'd suggest that the idea is repeatedly brought up, not because we're\nsupposed to consider it seriously, but because it's one way the\ncolonists/Annese are trying to fabricate a distinguished history for\nthemselves and their system (like Rome's invented descent from the Trojans).\nIt's another instance of the theme of self-delusion which runs through the\nbooks.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-05T18:20:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Phoebe Davis wrote:\n.I am in awe\nthat this gentleman, Tony Ellis, used a word that I had to look up. Thank\nyou for\ntergiverseration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was Andy Roberston. And it's 'tergiversation', I believe. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Adam Stephanides wrote:\nBut what Victor is doing within the world of 5HC is analogous to what Wolfe\ndid in Soldier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if you assume Victor is writing fiction. And if Wolfe wants us to\nassume that, why go to the bother of making Victor write a piece of fiction\nthat has so many externally verifiable details in it? Why not put some\nobvious internal inconsistencies in it, the way he does with Victor's\ngenuinely fictitious writing in 'V.R.T.'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is nothing to suggest that Silk is a fictional character invented by\nHorn, and such a reading would contribute nothing to the interpretation of\nthe Long Sun books: all we would be able to say is that a person about whom\nwe know nothing wrote a novel for some reason. Neither of these is true for\n\"A Story.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what _does_ the reading that 'A Story' is pure fiction contribute to 5HC?\nI'm open to persuasion, but I have yet to hear anyone come up with a\nplausible explanation as to why Wolfe should want to waste one third of a\nnovel with a section in which we are expected to understand that nothing we\nare told happens actually happens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the overlooking reinforces the picture of Croix/Anne as a backwater\ncolony, which adds to the book's political dimension and helps to explain\nNumber Five's father's frustration and Victor's interrogator's inferiority\ncomplex and over-compensatory bluster vis-a-vis Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The picture of Croix\\Anne as a backwater colony hardly needs reinforcing.\nAnd why reinforce it with a fact that by a million-to-one chance just\nhappens to reinforce a key incident in 'A Story'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd suggest that the idea is repeatedly brought up, not because we're\nsupposed to consider it seriously, but because it's one way the\ncolonists/Annese are trying to fabricate a distinguished history for\nthemselves and their system (like Rome's invented descent from the\nTrojans)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Number Five brings it up because he is under pressure from Mr Million to\nanswer, and to wind up David who is sneakily reading 'Tales from the Odyssey\n'. Dr Marsch, who brings it up in 'V.R.T.', is neither a colonist nor\nAnnese." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-05T17:35:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" \nPhoebe Davis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ".I am in awe\nthat this gentleman, Tony Ellis, used a word that I had to look up. Thank\nyou for\ntergiverseration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That was Andy Roberston. And it's 'tergiversation', I believe. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth - if you want to find a writer who uses\n\"tergiversation\", you must read Patrick O'Brien . . . almost as good as\nGene Wolfe, but very different.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-06T03:33:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/5/02 1:20 PM, Tony Ellis at LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk wrote:\nAnd Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But what Victor is doing within the world of 5HC is analogous to what Wolfe\ndid in Soldier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only if you assume Victor is writing fiction. And if Wolfe wants us to\nassume that, why go to the bother of making Victor write a piece of fiction\nthat has so many externally verifiable details in it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because that is what Victor would naturally do if he were writing a fiction\nabout the Annese." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not put some\nobvious internal inconsistencies in it, the way he does with Victor's\ngenuinely fictitious writing in 'V.R.T.'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably because he wants to portray Victor as a good writer of fiction,\nthough a bad liar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is nothing to suggest that Silk is a fictional character invented by\nHorn, and such a reading would contribute nothing to the interpretation of\nthe Long Sun books: all we would be able to say is that a person about whom\nwe know nothing wrote a novel for some reason. Neither of these is true for\n\"A Story.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what _does_ the reading that 'A Story' is pure fiction contribute to 5HC?\nI'm open to persuasion, but I have yet to hear anyone come up with a\nplausible explanation as to why Wolfe should want to waste one third of a\nnovel with a section in which we are expected to understand that nothing we\nare told happens actually happens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Assuming \"A Story\" is fiction, it serves several purposes. It contributes\nto the picture of Victor trying to \"know himself\" and to the theme of\nmythmaking. It may, as others have suggested, be a disguised autobiography.\nIt certainly reinforces a number of themes found in other parts of the book.\n\nBut I don't claim to fully understand 5HC or \"A Story's\" place in it. My\npoint above was simply that reading the Long Sun books as fictions by Horn\nis obviously a sterile reading, while the same is not true for reading \"A\nStory\" as a fiction.\n\nI can turn the question around, though: why, if Wolfe wants us to believe in\nprehistoric starcrossers and Shadow Children telepathically hiding the St.\nAnne, does he put this information in a document entitled simply \"A Story\"\nwhose purpose is unknown, and which is mostly fictional in any case (unless\nyou believe that the oral tradition preserved all Sandwalker's words and\nthoughts)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The picture of Croix\\Anne as a backwater colony hardly needs reinforcing.\nAnd why reinforce it with a fact that by a million-to-one chance just\nhappens to reinforce a key incident in 'A Story'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why a million-to-one chance? It's one of the facts Victor has incorporated\ninto his story.\n\n--Adam " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-06T16:20:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nreading the Long Sun books as fictions by Horn\nis obviously a sterile reading, while the same is not true for reading \"A\nStory\" as a fiction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No? :-) I find the idea of 'A Story' as fiction incredibly sterile. Saying\nthat Victor was trying to \"know himself\" may tell us why Victor wrote it,\nbut it doesn't tell us why Wolfe did. Why waste his time and ours encoding\nall that information about which was the indigenous race and which the\nalien, and keep coming back to it and coming back to it throughout the\nstory, and make us work so hard to piece it all together, if we're not\nsupposed to take it seriously? There are better and easier ways to pad out\ntwo novellas to paperback size." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The picture of Croix\\Anne as a backwater colony hardly needs reinforcing.\nAnd why reinforce it with a fact that by a million-to-one chance just\nhappens to reinforce a key incident in 'A Story'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why a million-to-one chance? It's one of the facts Victor has incorporated\ninto his story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A million-to-one chance because if all Wolfe wanted to do was reinforce the\nidea of the colony as a backwater -- which, as I say, is redundant anyway --\nthere were any number of ways to do it. Yet he chose one which implies that\na key moment in 'A Story' actually happened.\n\nAnd it's not Victor incorporating these external facts into 'A Story', it's\nWolfe. He's the one actually choosing what words go in and what words are\nleft out. And I can't believe he would put in elements that suggest 'A Story\n' really happened if we weren't supposed to entertain that idea - not when\nit's such a large part of the book, with so much important stuff said in it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-06T16:28:42+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony E. wrote:\nI find the idea of 'A Story' as fiction incredibly sterile. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ". Wolfe uses fiction in his fiction all the time, Tony -- all\nthe stuff from the \"brown book,\" the story of Doctor Death, etc., etc.\nThe puzzle is only to figure out what it's doing in this place. It's\npretty clear why the story of Dr. Death is present in \"The Island of\nDoctor Death and Other Stories\"; it's a little less clear why the\n\"brown book\" stories are present in tBotNS, but there's no doubt in\nanyone's mind that they're fiction and that they're there for a good\nand sufficient reason. A Story by \"John V. Marsch\" is hard, hard, but\nI think it reasonable to suppose it may be fiction and there for a\npurpose.\n\nNote I'm not saying it _is_ fiction, just that, _if_ it is, that's\nnot a basically or inherently sterile concept." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-05-06T17:02:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 6 May 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n ... It's\npretty clear why the story of Dr. Death is present in \"The Island of\nDoctor Death and Other Stories\"; it's a little less clear why the\n\"brown book\" stories are present in tBotNS, but there's no doubt in\nanyone's mind that they're fiction and that they're there for a good\nand sufficient reason." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are not just fiction: they are myth. They express patterns of history\nin easily understood and transmissible terms.\n\n'The Story Of The Student And His Son' is (among many other things) the\nstory of the Monitor and the Virginia (the Merrimac: from the US civil\nconflict of the 1860's) overlaid upon the story of Theseus.\n\nThe one about the wolves and 'Fish and Frog' is (again, among many other\nthings) an interplanetary war overlaid on the founding myth of Rome.\n\nAnd in what we are please to call 'our world' the story of Alexander gets\noverlaid upon the story of Gilgamesh.\n\nWolfe is one of the very few modern writers who really understands the\nprocess by which this happens. Jack Vance is another.\n\nThey are both very much aware of how ancient the human species is, how far\nback its memories go." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-06T17:25:24+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh G. points out that the \"brown book\" stories..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... are not just fiction: they are myth. They express patterns\nof history in easily understood and transmissible terms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yeah. I guess my point is that they are not _factual_ within\nthe universe-of-discourse. And, naturally, one of the running \ntheories regarding \"A Story by 'John V. Marsch'\" is that it's a\nmythic account of the coming of the settlers, from an Annese\npoint of view. \n\nWith an ambiguity fairly typical of the book, the story, seen as a \nmyth, credits non-human (non-abo) local beings - the Shadow Children \n- with having caused the settlers to find and arrive at Ste-Anne; \nbut such myths frequently provide some culturally meaningful \nexplanations for events and objects otherwise incomprehensible from \nwithin the cultural context. We cannot know whether the Shadow \nChildren ever actually existed on Ste-Anne; nor, if they did, \nwhether they were responsible for the non-discovery of the two worlds\nuntil that time; nor whether this is a 'real' Annese myth of the\ninvasion, or something \"John V. Marsch\"/VRT has made up from whole\ncloth, or some combination; nor, whatever it is, why he's done it.\nThis list has by now offered any number of speculations as to why\nVRT might have written a mythologized autobiography, transcribed a \nreal myth, or created a synthetic myth; each explanation creates\nfurther problems with other aspects of 5HC. \n\nThe Le Guin \"uncertainty\" analogy is good. I think an even better\nanalogy might be to Godel ... any reasonably consistent set of \npostulates you come up with regarding 5HC will leave some \"unprovable \ntruths,\" i.e., aspects of the book that you can't explain without\ninvoking further postulates, and ultimately you need to bring in \npostulates inconsistent with ones already in place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'The Story Of The Student And His Son' is (among many other\nthings) the story of the Monitor and the Virginia (the Merrimac:\nfrom the US civil conflict of the 1860's) overlaid upon the story\nof Theseus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, we discussed this a few weeks ago. I observed that the loser\nruled over a Land of Virgins, i.e., Virginia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The one about the wolves and 'Fish and Frog' is (again, among many\nother things) an interplanetary war overlaid on the founding myth\nof Rome." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention the stories of Mowgli (whose name, Kipling tells us,\nmeans \"naked frog\") and Moses..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And in what we are please to call 'our world' the story of\nAlexander gets overlaid upon the story of Gilgamesh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid I'm blanking on this." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-06T19:30:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 5 May 2002, Tony Ellis wrote:\nSo what _does_ the reading that 'A Story' is pure fiction contribute\nto 5HC? I'm open to persuasion, but I have yet to hear anyone come up\nwith a plausible explanation as to why Wolfe should want to waste one\nthird of a novel with a section in which we are expected to understand\nthat nothing we are told happens actually happens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm undecided about whether 'A Story' is \"true,\" but I'd like to take\nissue with your idea that it would be a waste if it weren't.\n\n1. It's an entertaining novella on its own. Maybe not the best Wolfe\never wrote, but it could have been published by itself, and then the\nquestion of how it fits with the rest of 5HC would be moot. It wouldn't\nbe any more fictional than anything else Wolfe has written.\n\n2. If it's meant to be a fabrication of one of the characters in 5HC,\nthen that should tell us something about the character who wrote it and\nperhaps something about others in the novel. Wolfe is often much more\ninterested in getting inside the heads and hearts of his characters than\nhe is in satisfying our curiosity about events. To Wolfe, the question,\n\"What sort of story would this character make up?\" might be much more\ninteresting than the question \"What really happened in the past on these\nplanets?\" If you were an alien wanting to understand humanity, would you\nrather read all of our history books, or all of our works of fiction?\n\nSee also the storytelling contest in _Citadel_.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-07T02:02:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/6/02 11:20 AM, Tony Ellis at LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk wrote:\nNo? :-) I find the idea of 'A Story' as fiction incredibly sterile. Saying\nthat Victor was trying to \"know himself\" may tell us why Victor wrote it,\nbut it doesn't tell us why Wolfe did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To indicate something about Victor's character, perhaps?\n\nIf the only purpose of \"A Story\" is to tell us about the prehistoric\ncolonizations and the Shadow Children's shield, then having it take up sixty\npages is a waste of space, whether it's true or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why waste his time and ours encoding\nall that information about which was the indigenous race and which the\nalien, and keep coming back to it and coming back to it throughout the\nstory, and make us work so hard to piece it all together, if we're not\nsupposed to take it seriously?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To say that we're not supposed to believe it is not to say that it doesn't\nplay an important role in the novel, either as Victor's invention or as an\nAnnese myth. Ambiguity over who is human and who isn't is a major theme of\n5HC.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-07T18:58:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nIf the only purpose of \"A Story\" is to tell us about the prehistoric\ncolonizations and the Shadow Children's shield, then having it take up\nsixty\npages is a waste of space, whether it's true or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why yes, it would be, but then I don't think that is the only purpose of 'A\nStory'. It also serves to tell us a lot about Annese culture, among other\nthings, and on top of that it's a rattling good yarn in its own right. But\ntoo great a proportion of it is taken up with the mystery of where the\nAnnese came from and how they got here for me not take that element\nseriously.\n\nThis is also my problem with the perfectly valid point made by both Dan'l\nand Michael Straight, that Wolfe uses stories within his bigger stories all\nthe time. My immediate response is \"yes, but why _this_ story?\" Why, out of\nall the stories he could have written, write one that worries and worries\naway so specifically at the idea of an ancient, star-faring race of humans?\nIt's not as if 'A Story' needs this subplot to be good fiction: take out the\nOld Wise One's tales, or make him talk about something else, and you would\nstill have a fine Wolfean story-within-a-story.\n\nAnother issue is that ordinarily, Wolfean stories-within-stories only take\nup a fraction of the larger narrative: the fact that they are not in the\nsame sense 'real' doesn't dilute that larger narrative. Writing 'A Story' as\nfiction, however, leaves a proportionally far larger chunk of 5HC with only\nan indirect and tenuous contribution to make to the whole. That doesn't feel\nright to me." } ] } ] }