{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3184", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3184, "subject": "Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "messages": 13, "voices": 10, "first": "2002-04-20T20:19:23+00:00", "last": "2002-04-24T17:27:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigel.a.price at virgin.net" }, "date": "2002-04-20T20:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Back in the \"good ol' days\" of 16-bit processors, people sometimes used to\nrefer to machines based around these devices as having \"a two-byte word\". A\nbyte is 8 bits, and the natural data size for input to and output from these\nchips was therefore two bytes.\n\nI've sometimes wondered whether there wasn't some sort of joke or word play\ngoing on in Wolfe's mind with Oreb, who can talk but who can only use two\nsyllables at a time. All Oreb's ideas are expressed in these compressed and\noccasionally gnomic two-syllable phrases. Perhaps he has a brain based\naround two-word bites, as it were.\n\nI'm sure that there will be contributors to the list who have converted\nprograms to work on different platforms and who may well have had to squeeze\nan application and its accompanying data so that it will work on a much\nsmaller device than that for which it was originally intended. All sorts of\nclever techniques have been evolved over the years, and I still marvel at\nthe way that the operating system on my PDA runs a form of Windows\n(so-called Windows CE)on an architecture vastly different and very much\nsmaller than that used by my desktop machine. File formats are seemlessly\nchanged as I shunt data back and forth between the handheld and the main PC.\n\nWolfe has the \"windows\" in the manteions carry out this sort of operation\nwith a whole human personality, for example downloading an already digitised\nversion of Scylla into Oreb's tiny memory and brain. As far as one can make\nout, all the data is downloaded, but the executable parts of Scylla's\npersonality can only run in a highly truncated form.\n\nI just love this mixing of imaginary engineering (how to effect the transfer\nof all that data!) and theological speculation (what is a personality? is it\na soul? is it transferrable?), which seems quintessential to the Lupine\nversion of science fantasy. But as others have pointed out, the \"transfer of\nhuman identity\" (Hartshorne) is a frquent occurence in Wolfe's writing,\nwhether it is Severian ingesting Thecla's personality and memories via the\nalzabo, or Mr Million preserving a human intelligence in a mechanical\nenvironment in 5HC. (Hmmm. There must be more room in Mr Million than in\npoor old Oreb's head. Mr Million does at least talk in complete sentences.\nAnybody know what the data capacity of a night chough's brain might be? More\nor less than a fine old Spectrum 48, I wonder?)\n\nI have to agree with Hartshorne that this transfer of identity business\nreally doesn't seem very \"biblical\". It's always seemed downright odd to\nme - wonderful and intriguing, but also very odd! As a Christian, Wolfe\nclearly believes in the soul, but his experimental treatment of this theme\nwithin an SF context has always seemed very daring to me. He achieves all\nsorts of extraordinary and complex effects, some of which carry deep\nsymbolic resonances, but the actual plot devices are definitely speculated\nand wholly science fictional, or at least, science fantastical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was therefore deeply puzzled by Tom's recent post where he wrote:\nMatt 16:13-17 seem to address the issue. It appears that Jews of the\ntime believed in some sort of soul-type transmigration, or something\npretty darn weird. And apparently Jesus does, too, as he praises\nSimon for getting it right, since doing so requires some sort\nof divine assistance. So it looks like the idea of the same soulish\nthing moving from one incarnation to another is not anti - or even\nextra-Biblical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I almost wondered whether we were looking at the same passage here, Tom!\nPeter's comments on the popular view of Jesus' ministry can be interpreted\nin a number of ways. He might mean, \"They think you are a prophet like John\nthe Baptist, Elijah or Jeremiah!\" He is probably referring to the fact that\nthe people are making reference to Malachi 4.5, where there is a promise\nthat \"Elijah\" will come before \"the day of the Lord\", and saying that Jesus\nis the one who comes as the reconciliatory herald who precedes the\njudgement. He may even be referring to an opinion, however metaphorical or\nliteral we may take it, that some people are saying that Jesus is one of the\nprophets come back to life, but I really can't see any reference to the\ntransmigration of souls in this exchange. When Jesus praises Simon in verse\n17 and tells him that he has received divine revelation, it's not because he\nhas agreed with whatever it was that the people believed about Jesus, but\nrather because Peter recognized that Jesus was the messaih, the Son of God\n(v16).\n\nAs for Alga's post which begins..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a Pharisees vs. Saducees question..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...I strongly suspect that my chain is being yanked! I refuse to rise to the\nbait! The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, the Saducees\ndidn't. Although he was famously critical of the shortcomings and\nhypocrisies of the Pharisees, Jesus did agree with them about the reality of\nlife after death.\n\nForgive a stodgy old, humourless Baptist, Alga, but that seems to be about\nit!\n\nNigel\n(Stodgy and humourless and Baptistical in Minety)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-20T20:56:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Nigel Price\" \nenvironment in 5HC. (Hmmm. There must be more room in Mr Million than in\npoor old Oreb's head. Mr Million does at least talk in complete sentences.\nAnybody know what the data capacity of a night chough's brain might be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or less than a fine old Spectrum 48, I wonder?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A cubic millimeter of brain has 14 kilometers of biological wiring packed\ninto it. There is no comparion between the brain of any living creature\nand ANY contemporary computer.\n\nI won't comment on the Pharasees/Saducsees debate, but I will note one other\nthing about Wolfe. Apparently machines - computer, Taloses, Solders and\nchems - are themselves to be redemeed, and become children of God.\n\nIsn't that interesting? It also occurs in Lafferty (ARRIVE AT EASTERWINE)\nand in Cordwainer Smith, but neither of them thought to preent it as\naccepted, routine, ordinary, boring.\n\n\n hartshorn (no capital H, no terminal e)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-04-21T06:16:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Nigel Price\" \nAs for Alga's post which begins..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is a Pharisees vs. Saducees question..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...I strongly suspect that my chain is being yanked! I refuse to rise to\nthe\nbait! The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, the Saducees\ndidn't. Although he was famously critical of the shortcomings and\nhypocrisies of the Pharisees, Jesus did agree with them about the reality\nof\nlife after death.\n\nForgive a stodgy old, humourless Baptist, Alga, but that seems to be about\nit!\n\nNigel\n(Stodgy and humourless and Baptistical in Minety)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your chain was not being yanked. That was a completely serious post, in\nwhich I tried to identify Matthew (whom I consider an interesting and\nimaginative nut-case, which may bring out your humourless Baptist\nfeelings--rising to the bait) as a hard-line resurectionist going against\nthe at-the-time and still orthodox Jewish majority feeling that this was/is\na somewhat ridiculous position.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-04-22T07:16:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hartshorn wrote:\nI won't comment on the Pharasees/Saducsees debate, but I will note one\nother\nthing about Wolfe. Apparently machines - computer, Taloses, Solders and\nchems - are themselves to be redemeed, and become children of God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know you are presenting what seems to be Wolfe's viewpoint, not your own.\n\nFirst of all, redeemed from what, exactly? Original Sin? For a Christian who\nsubscribes to that doctrine (as all, I assume, must; otherwise what need of\na \"Savior\"?), that's a rather queer notion. I mean, the progeny of Eve, even\nunto the nth generation, cut off from the Tree of Life and cursed to live by\nthe sweat of their brows, are all doomed by the nature of their flesh--the\nperils and temptations and foibles attendant upon it--to live out their\nlives as best they may, then to die. After death they are to be judged, and\nrewarded or punished eternally, according to how well they acquitted\nthemselves while alive and in the flesh. That flesh is subject, by\ndefinition, directly to Lust and Gluttony and, indirectly, to others of the\nDeadly Sins. It is very hard, if not impossible, to \"sin\" in any way that is\nnot reducible, ultimately, to the animal nature of the species.\n\nFor a non-corporeal entity (never mind where the \"soul\" came from) to be\nheld to the same standards as one of flesh and blood, strikes me as, well, .\n. . unfair, to say the least. It's easy to be a \"saint\" when it can't be\nhelped. Has your PC ever lusted after an iMac? Have you ever known a robot\nwho spent the rent money on wine, women, and the horses? Where is the virtue\nof resisting temptations one isn't even subject to?\n\nLook at Hammerstone; he had his basic, factory-issue value system changed by\nan ignorant priest with a screwdriver! Talk about an epiphany! Did that\naugur save that Iron Man's soul with his meddling, or doom him to hell when\nhe got some wires crossed?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-22T08:20:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 21/04/2002 07:16:44 Alice K. Turner wrote:\nI tried to identify Matthew (whom I consider an interesting and\nimaginative nut-case," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charmed, I'm sure.\n\n ;-)\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-22T16:27:46+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:\nYour chain was not being yanked. That was a completely serious post, in\nwhich I tried to identify Matthew (whom I consider an interesting and\nimaginative nut-case, which may bring out your humourless Baptist\nfeelings--rising to the bait) as a hard-line resurectionist going\nagainst the at-the-time and still orthodox Jewish majority feeling\nthat this was/is a somewhat ridiculous position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmmm. Well:\n\nFirst of all, the Pharisees essentially won -- if you look at modern\nOrthodox-with-a-capital-O Jewish practice, it's almost entirely \ndescended from the practices of the Pharisaical party. I believe that \nOrthodox Judaism today takes no official position on \"what happens\nafter death,\" but I'm not sure -- I'd have to do some research in \nbooks that I don't keep here at work (for some reason)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-04-22T17:52:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nigel Price writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was therefore deeply puzzled by Tom's recent post where he wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matt 16:13-17 seem to address the issue. It appears that Jews of the\ntime believed in some sort of soul-type transmigration, or something\npretty darn weird. And apparently Jesus does, too, as he praises\nSimon for getting it right, since doing so requires some sort\nof divine assistance. So it looks like the idea of the same soulish\nthing moving from one incarnation to another is not anti - or even\nextra-Biblical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Warning: discussion of what the word \"is\" means follows. Not for\nthe faint of heart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I almost wondered whether we were looking at the same passage here, Tom!\nPeter's comments on the popular view of Jesus' ministry can be interpreted\nin a number of ways. He might mean, \"They think you are a prophet like John\nthe Baptist, Elijah or Jeremiah!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then they should have said that. But they say (in KJV): \"Some\nsay that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias,\nor one of the prophets.\" They say \"is\" (well, \"art\"), not \"like\" or\n\"reminds us of\". What could they mean but some sort of soul-ish\ntransmigration? Especially since the crowds could easily tell the\ndifference between Jesus and John the Baptist? A straightforward\nreading would seem to indicate that when they said that Jesus \"was\"\nJohn the Baptist, they mean that some essential part of John was\nin Jesus, or something of the sort." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is probably referring to the fact that\nthe people are making reference to Malachi 4.5, where there is a promise\nthat \"Elijah\" will come before \"the day of the Lord\", and saying that Jesus\nis the one who comes as the reconciliatory herald who precedes the\njudgement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Elijah is the only one who could really fit the bill without some\nform of transmigration, as he's the only one of the group that\ndidn't die in the usual way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He may even be referring to an opinion, however metaphorical or\nliteral we may take it, that some people are saying that Jesus is one of the\nprophets come back to life, but I really can't see any reference to the\ntransmigration of souls in this exchange." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When people said Jesus \"was\" John the Baptist, what did they mean?\nI hate to jump on this point, but the whole Long/Short Sun series\nis filled with this sort of identity bluriness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Jesus praises Simon in verse\n17 and tells him that he has received divine revelation, it's not because he\nhas agreed with whatever it was that the people believed about Jesus, but\nrather because Peter recognized that Jesus was the messaih, the Son of God\n(v16)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that Jesus does not correct the apostles with the equivalent\nof \"You morons! Do I look like John the Baptist? How could I\nbe Isaiah when he's been dead for hundreds of years?\". He apparently\nfinds the idea plausible. Heck, it requires divine revelation for\nPeter to get the right answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Forgive a stodgy old, humourless Baptist, Alga, but that seems to be about\nit!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mention might be made of the demon named Legion, who is driven from\na possesed man into a herd of swine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nigel\n(Stodgy and humourless and Baptistical in Minety)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Meliza", "address": "meliza at ocf.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-22T18:21:50+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Nigel Price [mailto:nigel.a.price at virgin.net]\nSent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 1:19 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking\n(Hmmm. There must be more room in Mr Million than in\npoor old Oreb's head. Mr Million does at least talk in complete sentences.\nAnybody know what the data capacity of a night chough's brain might be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or less than a fine old Spectrum 48, I wonder?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's hard to compare algorithmic computers to brains but I'm almost certain\nOreb has the spectrum 48 beat. In fact, if he's at least as smart as Alex\nthe parrot (who can identify objects on the basis of verbal cues) he's\nsmarter than any software/hardware in existence today, though probably not\nin 20-50 years. Now with a vastly smaller hippocampus and frontal lobes\nit's questionable how much of a human-god's memory and personality you could\nstore in a bird-brain even if you weren't using it. But then, there must be\nsome way to vastly compress an intelligence if you're going to send it\nthrough the optic nerves in a few seconds.\n\nnow if only this sort of speculation were acceptable at qualifying exams.\n\ncheers,\ndan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-24T00:08:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A cubic millimeter of brain has 14 kilometers of biological wiring packed\ninto it. There is no comparion between the brain of any living creature\nand ANY contemporary computer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, but you are mistaken; we've had simulated worm and insect\nbrains for a few years. Another worm or fly might find the difference\nplain, but the comparative function's been demonstrated." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-24T00:40:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hartshorn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I won't comment on the Pharasees/Saducsees debate, but I will note one\nother\nthing about Wolfe. Apparently machines - computer, Taloses, Solders and\nchems - are themselves to be redemeed, and become children of God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know you are presenting what seems to be Wolfe's viewpoint, not your own.\n\nFirst of all, redeemed from what, exactly? Original Sin? For a Christian who\nsubscribes to that doctrine (as all, I assume, must; otherwise what need of\na \"Savior\"?), that's a rather queer notion. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThere's sin learned from others, Unoriginal Sin. :) Seriously, it's\ngenerally accepted among all but the most reactionary Christians that\nJesus' sacrifice redeemed everyone from original sin, both retroactively\nand for all generations to come. So, innocent babies do not go to hell\nif they die before being baptised or otherwise \"cleansed\" of sin. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, the progeny of Eve, even\nunto the nth generation, cut off from the Tree of Life and cursed to live by\nthe sweat of their brows, are all doomed by the nature of their flesh--the\nperils and temptations and foibles attendant upon it--to live out their\nlives as best they may, then to die. After death they are to be judged, and\nrewarded or punished eternally, according to how well they acquitted\nthemselves while alive and in the flesh. That flesh is subject, by\ndefinition, directly to Lust and Gluttony and, indirectly, to others of the\nDeadly Sins. It is very hard, if not impossible, to \"sin\" in any way that is\nnot reducible, ultimately, to the animal nature of the species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIn the same way, most Christians other than the crustiest\nfundamentalists will consider yielding to lust and gluttony to be sinful\nbecause/if the person chooses to indulge when they know better. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For a non-corporeal entity (never mind where the \"soul\" came from) to be\nheld to the same standards as one of flesh and blood, strikes me as, well, .\n. . unfair, to say the least. It's easy to be a \"saint\" when it can't be\nhelped. Has your PC ever lusted after an iMac? Have you ever known a robot\nwho spent the rent money on wine, women, and the horses? Where is the virtue\nof resisting temptations one isn't even subject to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Salvation's not about cultivating virtue, it's about refraining from\nharming yourself and others. There are plenty of precedent for the\nbehavior (or imagined behavior) of nonhuman beings being held up as an\nexample of virtuous conduct worth of emulation; the various animal\nspecies that mate for life, the work ethic and community spirit of the\nbeaver, a lion's courage, the indomitability of the bear. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look at Hammerstone; he had his basic, factory-issue value system changed by\nan ignorant priest with a screwdriver! Talk about an epiphany! Did that\naugur save that Iron Man's soul with his meddling, or doom him to hell when\nhe got some wires crossed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "possibly, would he have had time to realize the difference between right\nand wrong?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-24T05:38:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sheesh. OK \"Any vertebrate\". My bad.\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \n\nI'm sorry, but you are mistaken; we've had simulated worm and insect\nbrains for a few years" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-04-24T17:27:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nFirst of all, redeemed from what, exactly? Original sin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is very hard, if not impossible, to \"sin\" in any way that is\nnot reducible, ultimately, to the animal nature of the species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Classically, Pride is seen as the chief of sins, and one that is least\nconnected to our animal nature. Thought to be the source of \n\nIf angels (e.g. Satan) can sin and fall away from God, it seems consistent\nthat it would be possible for machines and other non-animal persons.\n\nAlso, one conjecture that because humanity is fallen, the machines we\nmake are subject to the same flaws we are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look at Hammerstone; he had his basic, factory-issue value system changed by\nan ignorant priest with a screwdriver! Talk about an epiphany! Did that\naugur save that Iron Man's soul with his meddling, or doom him to hell when\nhe got some wires crossed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many human beings have biological problems that similarly effect their\nbehavior. One imagines/hopes that if people of any sort are held\naccountable for their actions, God would take that sort of thing into\naccount. One man's half-hearted attempts to belive, repent, and do good \nmight produce more apparent virtue than the whole-hearted effort of\nanother, but perhaps God judges the heart. And if grace can forgive\nintentional sins, it can forgive acts done under the influence of crossed\nwires.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-24T16:39:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Scylla, Oreb and transmigrational chain yanking", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Michael Straight\" \nLook at Hammerstone; he had his basic, factory-issue value system\nchanged by\nan ignorant priest with a screwdriver! Talk about an epiphany! Did that\naugur save that Iron Man's soul with his meddling, or doom him to hell\nwhen\nhe got some wires crossed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many human beings have biological problems that similarly effect their\nbehavior. One imagines/hopes that if people of any sort are held\naccountable for their actions, God would take that sort of thing into\naccount." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Wolfe is well aware of the moral side of it.\n\nThe aggresive approprioation of the mechanical into the divine is on one\nlevel an argument against the idea that **humans** are merely mechanical.\n\nHumans, **as well as** machines, have free will, hence responsibility, hence\nauthentic moral status.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\nOne man's half-hearted attempts to belive, repent, and do good" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "might produce more apparent virtue than the whole-hearted effort of\nanother, but perhaps God judges the heart. And if grace can forgive\nintentional sins, it can forgive acts done under the influence of crossed\nwires.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n\n\n\n--" } ] } ] }