{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3201", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3201, "subject": "Prehistoric Starcrossers", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-04-26T12:15:21+00:00", "last": "2002-05-01T14:13:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-26T12:15:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI'll bite; how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without\nleaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the\narchaeological record?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They certainly leave a hint in the story. The Old Wise One talks of a\n\"starcrosser\", and later he seems to be remembering the actual splashdown\nitself: \"'Like a spark from the echoless vault of emptiness,' the Old Wise\nOne continued, 'the shining shape slipped steaming into the sea.'\"\n\nNotice the poetic, alliterative language the Old Wise One uses here, and\nnowhere else. It's as if he's quoting some epic oral poem along the lines of\nHomer. Another clue, I think, that there's a link between the ancient\ncivilisations of Earth and the Annese.\n\nAs for the archaeological record, who says they didn't leave a trace there?\nWe're talking about what may be the crushed and rusted remains of only a\nsingle spaceship, trapped between two layers of sedimentary rock somewhere\non a big empty planet. Easy to miss." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-26T16:37:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Tony Ellis wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll bite; how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without\nleaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the\narchaeological record?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They certainly leave a hint in the story. The Old Wise One talks of a\n\"starcrosser\", and later he seems to be remembering the actual\nsplashdown\nitself: \"'Like a spark from the echoless vault of emptiness,' the Old\nWise\nOne continued, 'the shining shape slipped steaming into the sea.'\"\n\nNotice the poetic, alliterative language the Old Wise One uses here, and\nnowhere else. It's as if he's quoting some epic oral poem along the\nlines of\nHomer. Another clue, I think, that there's a link between the ancient\ncivilisations of Earth and the Annese." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting point about the style, though I don't think we're\nexpected to believe that Earth's ancient civilizations have a\nmonoply on alliteration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the archaeological record, who says they didn't leave a trace\nthere?\nWe're talking about what may be the crushed and rusted remains of only a\nsingle spaceship, trapped between two layers of sedimentary rock\nsomewhere\non a big empty planet. Easy to miss." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth.\nAnyway, that's my question. How could you make a spaceship without\na very large industrial society? I think archeologists or\ngeologists would have found some remnants.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-27T06:00:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Notice the poetic, alliterative language the Old Wise One uses here, and\nnowhere else. It's as if he's quoting some epic oral poem along the lines of\nHomer. Another clue, I think, that there's a link between the ancient\ncivilisations of Earth and the Annese.\n\nAs for the archaeological record, who says they didn't leave a trace there?\nWe're talking about what may be the crushed and rusted remains of only a\nsingle spaceship, trapped between two layers of sedimentary rock somewhere\non a big empty planet. Easy to miss." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant _earthly_ archaeology record; where are the remnants of the\nresidences, strip mines, steel mills, chemical plants, fuel refineries,\nand other features expected of an industrial society capable of building\na starcrosser? " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-27T09:04:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooh now I see. Sorry Jeff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, that's my question. How could you make a spaceship without\na very large industrial society? I think archeologists or\ngeologists would have found some remnants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Gondwanaland broke up a pretty long time ago, and Atlantis and Mu both\nsank. But I see a long and slippery slope here, at the bottom of which I see\nmyself, arguing like a latter-day Von Daniken. Let me just say this instead:\nI don't believe that in real life there was ever a prehistoric\nsuper-civilisation on Earth. I also don't believe in travel by mirrors,\ngenetic memory, or a compassionate god. But when I come across these things\nin a story, especially a story by Gene Wolfe, I'm happy to suspend my\ndisbelief for a while." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-28T09:21:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ooh now I see. Sorry Jeff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, that's my question. How could you make a spaceship without\na very large industrial society? I think archeologists or\ngeologists would have found some remnants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Gondwanaland broke up a pretty long time ago, and Atlantis and Mu both\nsank. But I see a long and slippery slope here, at the bottom of which I see\nmyself, arguing like a latter-day Von Daniken. Let me just say this instead:\nI don't believe that in real life there was ever a prehistoric\nsuper-civilisation on Earth. I also don't believe in travel by mirrors,\ngenetic memory, or a compassionate god. But when I come across these things\nin a story, especially a story by Gene Wolfe, I'm happy to suspend my\ndisbelief for a while." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI try to do the same, but since Wolfe brings the archaeological record\ninto the story, you have to really think about what he's trying say.\nThere is no mere mention and dismissal of lack of evidence, but a\nrepeated visitation of the subject, with the character of Marsch\nentering all three novellas, and two of the main characters holding\nforth on the proper interpretation of the archaeological record,\nincluding what does and does not endure. Or are we supposed to think\ngrasses and animal tissue formed the structures of the original\nstarcrossing civilization?\n\n\tRather than that, I think that it may be possible to explain the origin\nof the abos and shadow children via the time shifting themes of 5HC, but\nthat would be another post." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Filipe Silva", "address": "lafey at netcabo.pt" }, "date": "2002-04-29T00:03:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings\n\nIn answer to:\n\"how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without\nleaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the\narchaeological record?\"\n\n\nIt is possible to travel through ether leaving your physical form in the same \nplace. Such phenomenon is called travel in the Jinas form (Hindostanic root). \nAny esoterist will acknowledge this. Mayan people did it all the time. Well \nevidences - you'll acknowledge that our civilization is crossing a Iron period \nwhere animal emotions rule our ways. Advanced men do not flatter \nthemselves. Old civs did left evidence of their ways (in stone for instance) but \nwe are in such a primary degenerate state comparing to them that we cannot \nsee the obvious anymore - even with crude physical eyes. Periodic \ncataclysms like the one that struck Atlantis and before that Lemuria are \nmeant to clean up \"mankind\" (in Lemuria men weren't exactly like we are \nnowadays). Our civilization time is ending - I wouldn't like to get much into \neschatology - but lets go peacefully knowing that from our ashes others will \narise - stronger and bond to have higher virtues. \n +-----------------+\n |José Filipe Silva|\n | lafey at netcabo.pt|\n +-----------------+" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-04-29T04:38:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Filipe Silva\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In answer to:\n\"how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without\nleaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the\narchaeological record?\"\n\nIt is possible to travel through ether leaving your physical form in the same\nplace. Such phenomenon is called travel in the Jinas form (Hindostanic root).\nAny esoterist will acknowledge this. Mayan people did it all the time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThis I've heard of, but it is not specifically mentioned in the story,\nand it would contradict the dependency the abos have on their physical\nbodies. \"A Story\" has ghosts and the Wise Old One, but they are\nultimately dependent on abos with physical, living bodies for influence. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well\nevidences - you'll acknowledge that our civilization is crossing a Iron period\nwhere animal emotions rule our ways. Advanced men do not flatter\nthemselves. Old civs did left evidence of their ways (in stone for instance) but\nwe are in such a primary degenerate state comparing to them that we cannot\nsee the obvious anymore - even with crude physical eyes. Periodic\ncataclysms like the one that struck Atlantis and before that Lemuria are\nmeant to clean up \"mankind\" (in Lemuria men weren't exactly like we are\nnowadays). Our civilization time is ending - I wouldn't like to get much into\neschatology - but lets go peacefully knowing that from our ashes others will\narise - stronger and bond to have higher virtues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tBut doesn't Jinas travel confound this process of catclysmic\nrefinement? It lets the old, unimproved races escape their purification\nby traveling to other planets, where they endure to late mingle with and\ncontaminate the successive civilizations' \"higher virtues.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-01T14:13:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/28/02 7:03 PM, Filipe Silva at lafey at netcabo.pt wrote:\nIn answer to:\n\"how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without\nleaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the\narchaeological record?\"\n\n\nIt is possible to travel through ether leaving your physical form in the same\nplace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nApart from anything else, the OWO states explicitly that the Shadow\nChildren's ancestors arrived in a \"starcrosser\" -- i.e. a spaceship (p. 125,\nAce edition).\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }